Thank you for admitting that you only have blind faith, and that you have no other evidence.
Not intending sarcasm, but if you’d read my post carefully you’d see the answer to this question.
The concept of the Holy Spirit is not intrinsically Christian. It exists in plenty of other religions, sometimes by a different name. The concept of our inner connection to a prime source which leads to enlightenment is pretty widespread.
IMHO it’s not a matter of punishment but rather bearing the consequences of our own choices as individuals, and as a society. Sometimes we are mistaken but there is a difference between trying to do what we truly believe is right only to have our beliefs and understanding challenged and changed, and specifically resisting the urgings of our own inner connection. It’s a question of our prime motivation. Is it ego, power, fear, possessions, or is it a commitment to love and our inner journey. IMO the essence of God is love and truth and that’s how we discern the difference between the true voice of the Holy Spirit or our own emotional desires. It’s all over the NT. Acts of love and compassion are born of the Holy Spirit. Acts of selfishness and ego are not. Forget the labels and dogma. It’s really that straightforward.
It’s never a question of trusting the Bible or any other book. It’s a process of self discovery and learning to tune in and trust the Holy Spirit. We can trust {or have faith} that if we truly seek that connection then we may indeed make some bad calls and take an occasional wrong turn but even that will be part of the learning and spiritual growth process. We don’t trust the HS as a separate entity that is trying to control us in some benevolent way. We trust the HS as a real part of who and what we are , just as I trust that the blood in me and my family is connected beyond any ability to disconnect. The HS connects all in a similar and even more profound way.
Exactly.
There’s passages sometimes quoted by non believers about Jesus bringing the sword rather than peace, and unless someone hates their mother and relatives they are not worthy, and a couple of others. They are often pointed out as an indication of what a jerk Jesus was. IMO in these verses Jesus is saying that ultimately the commitment to love and truth must be without compromise. If you put your family’s feelings,or tradition before, that commitment then you can’t get there. To thine own self be true. For me , when I was a member of a Christian church I was being true to myself at the time, according to my understanding. When I began to question and doubt certain beliefs it would be dishonest to just ignore those doubts. When my beliefs changed after my won studying I had to let go of the Christian label for myself in order to remain true.
If someone chooses the approval of friends and family over being true to themselves they pay a certain price.
Thanks for that but honestly, if you can see an act of love and compassion by non Christians and not see that as “from God” and not recognize the presence of the Holy Spirit in those acts then you have missed my point and IMO severely misunderstood the message of Jesus.
kanicbird, I notice that you didn’t respond to any of the three questions I asked.
Who is this God who has made us curious, and yet condemns curiosity?
The same one that stuck a tree full of delicious fruit in the middle of a playground and told two innocent childlike people, “Don’t eat this delicious fruit!”, then walked off knowing what the inevitable result would be.
You mentioned external evidence. Let me ask you a question along those lines. Lets say you were visiting a building, and there was a box of candy bars with a sign saying take one. You took one ate it and threw away the wrapper. Later that day the building burnt down, the candy bars and the wrapper was destroyed. No one saw you eat that candy bar, nor did anyone really know how many candybars were available. Are you willing to say that you believe you ate that candy bar only on blind faith as there is no external evidence?
I think I understand your point, boiled down, God is love, and showing that love is from God Himself. It’s one that I do disagree with, it’s the faith that God wants in us, that faith will bring you to love - it is by faith we are saved, then judged by in short, how well we loved. We simply can not love enough on our own to even erase a single sin, and that makes us unworthy to be with God. One of the central messages of Jesus is that no matter how hard we try we all fall short of the glory of God (Romans 3:22), this does indicate that we can try to do good and love on our own attempts, and I would contend do pretty well by worldly standards.
PBear42
Q. Do you really not realize that almost all the people with whom you’re debating know Chrisitianity inside-and-out?
A. No I realized some of them do, not ‘almost all’.
Q. If a Mormon says to you, “I prayed to the Lord to tell me whether this is true and he said ‘yes’,” would you consider this proof that Mormanism is true?
A. No.
Q. If the President of the United States prayed to God to tell him whether America should invade Iraq and the President honestly believed that God had put the feeling in his heart that it should, does this prove that God authorized the Iraqi invasion?
A. No.
Apples and oranges. In that case your belief that you ate the candy bar is founded on your belief that your senses and memory are generally reliable. And that’s a testable claim – at least in as much as you can check that the things you claim to have done generally agree with the memories of others. But is the reliability of faith equally testable?
Even if all evidence that I ate the candy bar is destroyed (except my memory of the event), I can believe it on memory alone because I have numerous other documented occurences where my memory produced independently verifiable information. (Of course, it’s not 100%, but it’s good enough to get by, especially when you’re asking me to recall recent events.)
On the other hand, say you claim “I believe in God based on faith” even though there’s no physical evidence. Can you produce other examples where belief based on faith has produced independently verifiable information? Can you show that the success rate for faith is high enough to justify trusting it as a source of information?
I can show you a box of candy bars, a picture of a house, a film of a house on fire, a video of a man eating a candy bar, a sample candy bar wrapper and a photo of myself because all of these things exist and are real to me and millions of other people. Show me one photo of a god, and we can begin discussing your extremely faulty analogy.
No point going around in circles. We don’t agree. Keep in mind that Romans is not the words of Jesus.
There’s a lot of verses in the NT to weigh against each other.
James 2:14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
Revelation 20:12
And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
Revelation 20:13
The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
John 3:20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”
Romans 2:5But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6God "will give to each person according to what he has done."7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
and many more.
It’s not being saved by the works. It’s that the works show the true condition of the spirit within regardless of labels, doctrine, tradition, dogma, etc.
John 4:24
God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
kanicbird, recall your original post on this issue (#12):
How is your faith different that that of the two cases I described? I confess they seem to me identical, including being entirely sincere and seeming to the persons holding them perfectly real. See, for example, dangermom’s explanation for why she’s a Mormon.
:smack: Should say, "How is your faith different from that of the two cases [etc.].
Another stab at this…
While YOU may believe you ate the candy bar, proving it to others would take some form of physical evidence… so, we would have to decide on YOUR credibility wehter or not to believe you.
Faith is belief in your credibility… producing evidence PROVES your credibility.
Faith does not equal proof… re-read Hebrews 11.
To quote you:
Satan has no power of himself,nor do we.All power is from God alone,That said God authorized others to use His power-including Satan.
If this is true then it would be God’s will to do evil. What proof do you have to back up this statement,it was not from God but from your own beliefs. In your interpetation I would say It would mean God does evil things,just as much as a person is responsible for using a hitman to kill another.
Monavis
cosmosdan One point you seem to be indirectly making is that one does not have to know that Jesus is the Son of God to be able to receive salvation, the Holy Spirit could indwell a non-believer in Jesus, and that person can do the work of Jesus and become like Him, or is short become Him, even if he doesn’t beleive. If I got this correct I wish to ask you a question relating to this. What about belief in a false god or gods? It seems very clear that God does not like false gods, incurring curses, demonic possession and in general destruction.
Easiest way to describe this is you are free to keep and bear arms in the US, The authority was given to you to use as you see fit. You make the choice to use that authority for good or evil and don’t turn around and sue the gun manufacturer when you use a gun to commit a murder.
(Have to run, will get back to other q’s later)
But God knows all things even before they happen, so that would mean He willed someone to do evil,at least that is how your explaination seems to me. A gun manufacturer doesn’t make the gun with the intention of it being used for murder, if he did then he could be held liable. So then since God knew the person was going to do evil then God is responsible for the evil that He knew would happen.
Monavis
Monavis a person must make the free will choice who to serve, God or Satan. I’m sure God knows the 2 destinies available to us for every time we chose who to serve, and He can see them all to the end point(s), but to have true free will we have to chose which one to follow.
This was my second revision - or stab at it, that my faith in God has to do with His credibility, which to me personally is far better then any person I know.
OK let me revise my answer. It would be Yes, it is proof for the person - a proof based on God’s credibility to that person, and no,no for me. Faith and the man/God relationship is on a personal level.
So God knows before we are born that some will choose evil? If I as a parent knew the child I would concieve would choose evil I would make sure I didn’t have such an evil being brought into the world. If God knows this all a head of time then he wills that evil happens.
Our choise is not really free if we choose evil (which no sane human would do) then be punished for it. It is either God’s way or the Highway and there is no way of knowing what God really wills; we just have some human’s word for it.
I respect your right to belive as you do, but I am glad I do not.
Monavis