Why do you believe the Biblical accounts of miracles?

Great Debates
121

[QUOTE=kanicbird]
Knowing all that is to be know, then Yes. Does this mean that everything is predetermined, No. God has allowed - extended His authority - for us to determine where we end up. If one were to ask God if they would go to ‘heaven’ or ‘hell’, I would expect a answer along the lines of ‘that is your choice to make’.
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No, it’s God’s choice. God created hell (in your theology) and God has all the say about who goes there. He can’t escape responsibility by whining that the people he tortures made their own choice about it. He doesn’t HAVE to send anybody to hell. He can let everybody into Heaven if he wants to. Why doesn’t he want to? What does he get out of torturing people for eternity? Tossing people he allegedly 'loves" into an eternal, conscious hell is the most sadistic, psychotic, gratuitous evil imaginable. It’s indefensible. Hell does nothing for God and nothing for “good” people. Only human beings would be capable of imagining something as profoundly sick and hateful as an eternal hell.

He won’t “force” them, he’ll just burn them in hell if they don’t? Something does not compute there.

How is anyone supposed to know which religion is the correct one, by the way? they all have exactly the same evidence. That turns salvation into a guessing game.

If God is omniscient, then he knowingly created Satan as a “monster.” He could have just as easily created an angel who he knew would choose NOT to be a devil. The protesting about “free will” fails as a defense for God because still has all the say about who gets created and who doesn’t. He has no reason to create people who he knows will choose evil. That would not conflict with free will because everyone creates would still choose good completely by themselves.

Not really like a parent because a parent is dealing with a child who has already been created. God is not so hampered. Children who choose evil can only exist by God’s will. Please understand, I’m not saying that God should make people incapable of choosing evil, only that he has the option of creating only people who he knows will FREELY choose good.

He committed suicide to stop himself from torturing his own creation in eternal Hell …as long as they believe that story without evidence, of course. If they don’t believ that story or if they are convinced to believe some other story, then they still end up as barbecue. Yes, that is a “love,” that I do not understand.

No, he just burns you in Hell if you don’t do it (and you have to do it without receiving a shred of proof that he exists), but hey, no pressure.

122

Look at it this way: If you had the ability to genetically plan the birth of your child so that everything was to your liking(without the possibility of a mistake), would you throw in blindness, disease or a malformed leg just to give your child a “learning experience”?

123

Harlan Ellison once called the argument that we choose to go to the Hell created by this god the “Laurel and Hardy” Defense-“Now look what you’ve made me do!”

124

[QUOTE=PBear42]
Contrapuntal: Actually, that’s precisely my point. Omniscience is just information. It doesn’t cause anything.
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I should have been more specific. It is information about the past.

Or look at it another way. Watch the tape of the game. See that guy block a shot at the 4 minute mark? Watch it a hundred million more times. Tell me how often he fails to block the shot.

Omniscience may not cause anything, but an omniscient, omnipresent, all powerful creator causes everything.

125

Czarcasm: That’s a different incoherence argument, along the lines of, Can an omnipotent god make a stone too heavy for himself to lift? To which the answer is “no,” and he can’t divide by zero either. Your theists should be saying that God by definition is good and doesn’t do evil (not can’t). To be clear, my objection here is similar to my objection to similar propositions advanced by theists (the cosmological proof, etc.). IMHO, God’s existence or nonexistence cannot be proven by logical debate. Nor, frankly, have I ever met anyone who bases their opinion on God’s existence on such grounds. They’re always the icing on the cake and which ones appeal (if any) depend on how one has come out already on the fundamental question.

Contrapuntal: Well, I did say it was an analogy. If you have a better one that will model omniscience, I’m open to suggestions. That’s just the best up with which I’ve been able to come so far. The point remains that God’s knowing what you’re going to do doesn’t cause you to do it. The analogy is only intended to illustrate, not prove that point. As for your last sentence, says who? Not mainstream Judeo-Christianity. Sure, God is all powerful, but he doesn’t cause everything any more than the Big Bang caused the Beatles. Rather, under the story as given, the interventions (for example Exodus and the Sacrifice) have been exceptions. Generally, we muddle along on our own, not getting much guidance.

126

[QUOTE=cosmosdan]
The Course in Miracles has some interesting ideas in this area although I’ve only begun to explore them. For one thing God does not operate on a linear time line as we think of it. The other suggestion is that we as peers with God and part of God decided to create the illusion of choice and free will. In order to do that we had to have something else to choose.

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I’m not concerned with god’s interaction with people. His being evil is not logically contradictory to either omnipotence of omniscience. But, if he sees all time laid out before him, as a roadmap, he is just as locked into his future actions as people are, and he does not have at least the illusion of free will. Is that omnipotence? No, with that information, a robot or not very intelligent computer could do God’s job.

127

[QUOTE=Contrapuntal]
I should have been more specific. It is information about the past.

Or look at it another way. Watch the tape of the game. See that guy block a shot at the 4 minute mark? Watch it a hundred million more times. Tell me how often he fails to block the shot.

Omniscience may not cause anything, but an omniscient, omnipresent, all powerful creator causes everything.
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But God definitely has information about the future, thus the prophecies in the Bible.

128

[QUOTE=kanicbird]
Knowing all that is to be know, then Yes. Does this mean that everything is predetermined, No. God has allowed - extended His authority - for us to determine where we end up. If one were to ask God if they would go to ‘heaven’ or ‘hell’, I would expect a answer along the lines of ‘that is your choice to make’.

Also God has not only made agreements with man, but apparently also with Satan, who does have some interest in the affairs of man (bible cite available upon request) - so God will honor His agreements even if some people will live a while in this world before their final place is determined.

The atrocities of humanity are a result of our rebellious nature, God won’t force anyone to obey and worship Him, that would be a far worse ‘crime’ then what Hitler did.

In short it is God’s way to allow Satan’s way. God is a God of His word, and whatever agreement between God and Satan exists will be honored.

There is no indication that I am aware of that Satan was created as a monster, just chose the path of rebellion somewhere along the way.

Not really a good analogy IMHO, more like a parent , saying to His child here is the way I know you can live, but you are totally free to try things on your own.

Then you don’t understand what Jesus did for us. I can say this because it was such a overwhelming display of love that I don’t think anyone can fully understand it.

My God does not require it.
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If God knew he created beings with a rebellious nature then God is responsible for the evil men do.

What kind of a Being would make a pact with an evil being that he knew would harm his children?

If a child is given a gun by his parents and kills someone with it(and they knew he would) they are more guilty than the child.

God could have made Satan powerless but didn’t, then God is to blame for Satan’s actions as well.

Satan was supposed to be a perfect being and since he rebelled and was not tempted God must have created him with flaws.

I see no logic in your explainations.

Jesus would have done more for us had he stayed on earth rather than to die for about 36 hours. I doubt if anyone would not believe a 2,000 + year old man. Since he knew he would come back in a few hours to me his death was no different than a person in a coma for a few hours. If my child went to war and said to me,I am going to die but I will be back in a few hours I would just say..OKAY, do you want me to have a meal ready for you!

Monavis

129

[QUOTE=Chief Pedant]
(Underline mine)

Exactly. I have made the point elsewhere that the fundamental problem with Christian theology is not just freewill versus punishing a finite being for making bad choices.

The core dilemma is that it is exactly God’s will to establish a world where beings will choose only good. This existence is called Heaven in Christian theology. No Christian theology embraces a Heaven where things can turn sour when finite beings choose evil.

Therefore the core dillemma is: Why not start with heaven?

Is God not omniscient? Is he not omniopotent? Is he not prescient?
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If beings choose only good in Heaven,why did Satan and other angels rebel?

Monavis

130

[QUOTE=monavis]
If beings choose only good in Heaven,why did Satan and other angels rebel?

Monavis
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I don’t do apologetics for a belief system I find inconsistent, but…

I was referring, shorthand, to the “New Heaven” which in Christian theology is established at the end of this present age.

The total cycle is: God, eternally present…then pre-earth creation with heavenly beings, some of which turn bad…then earth and human beings, some of which choose badly…then Judgment Day…then the New Heaven (and New Earth) paradigm in which Hell eternally separates the non-chosen from the Chosen.

Those chosen for the New Heaven, in any standard Christian theology, will never re-create the mistakes of those beings who have ended up in Hell.

Therefore my question for Christian apologists was: Why not just start with the New Heaven era–a paradigm in which beings will not choose badly? Why not just start with a creation in which there is no suffering, and no opportunity to bring it into the world? Is God not omnipotent? Is he not omniscient? Is he not prescient (and standard theology is not that God is prescient but that he exists outside the constraint of time and knows the future because he already exists there…“I Am” and not “I will be”)?

The standard apology for the existence of evil is that it is a result of free will, and that free will is so important that beings should be created with it. However, the beings in the New Heaven will have no free will–that is, they will not be able to choose to wreck things. Therefore, why not start Creation there, and have those kinds of beings be the only ones ever created?

131

[QUOTE=Voyager]
I’m not concerned with god’s interaction with people. His being evil is not logically contradictory to either omnipotence of omniscience. But, if he sees all time laid out before him, as a roadmap, he is just as locked into his future actions as people are, and he does not have at least the illusion of free will. Is that omnipotence? No, with that information, a robot or not very intelligent computer could do God’s job.
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If the very nature and essence of God is love and truth I don’t find it contradictory to omnipotence for God not to act contrary to his nature. However, since I don’t embrace the “separate sky god” concept it may be irrelevant.