[QUOTE=olivesmarch4th]
I had the word impermanence tattooed on my body
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You just got yourself written into my next book. That’s the funniest thing I’ve read in days.
Sure, it’s funny until you try to explain it to someone.
Technically, it says ‘‘impermanent.’’ In Sanskrit.
‘‘What’s your tattoo mean?’’
‘‘Impermanent.’’
‘‘Oh, it’s not permanent?’’
‘‘No, it means impermanent.’’
:dubious:
An interesting concept from “Personality and Its Disorders: A Biosocial Learning Approach” by Millon and Everly: the brain physically modifies itself as a result of moods, over time. That is, people who are depressed end up with chemically-altered brains. It’s like momentum…it becomes much easier for us to fall into a funk and not be able to snap out of it like other people.
But IIRC from psych classes, there is a debate as to whether depression is a free-standing disorder or whether it’s symptomatic of other disorders. E.g. some people in here talk about avoidance of the aversive stimulus as a “reward” of depression. For me, I can say it’s the opposite: if I’m really down it’s because I can’t get away from it. There are probably different bases for it and therefore different symtpoms.
[QUOTE=olivesmarch4th]
Sure, it’s funny until you try to explain it to someone.
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–and then it’s hilarious.
Your tattoo makes me feel better. Thanks.
My mother called my sister, “A Grief Freak”.
[QUOTE=lobotomyboy63]
(2) I think I’m reality-based, which could make anybody depressed. I bet other depressives will resonate: when someone gets all chirpy about life, I wonder, ‘Are you not paying attention to some of the shit that’s going down?’
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Yup.
[QUOTE=olivesmarch4th]
For me, depression is absolutely the pinnacle of psychological laziness, a giving up, a closing out of the world and of feelings, a refusal to engage with reality. At some point all the anxious energy becomes too much and everything implodes in on itself. This might not be true for everyone, but it’s true for me. The very first thing I do when I get depressed is think about quitting my job, running away, or even killing myself. I couldn’t possibly be rejecting the world and all its difficulty more at that point. Though I certainly do agree that where depression burns is the lack of will. I consider that the same as laziness, though I’m often chastised for calling myself lazy (you’re not lazy, you’re depressed!) Okay, so what if I am depressed? What it comes down to is, I don’t want to do this thing because it’s too hard and I don’t care about the long-term possible benefit because I am so wedded to this moment and the agony of living it.
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I wouldn’t chastise you for using the term lazy, but you might be too hard on yourself in doing so. I know it’s a question of semantics, but I consider “lazy” to be not doing what one could otherwise do–and what one knows how to do. I don’t know what it is that you avoid in your description above, but it seems to me anxiety and depression are different things, though in your situation they’re clearly intertwined. (I was thinking about the OP, and people not wanting someone else to cheer them up when they’re depressed.) In any case, it’s not clear to me whether you get depressed for an unknown reason, and that makes you anxious, or you get anxious about some overwhelming thing you face, and you get depressed by your inaction. In either case, I wouldn’t use the word “lazy,” because for me it connotes a kind of judgment–here, against yourself. It’s like telling yourself that there’s no understandable reason for having these reactions, and if you do have them, you could easily prevent them, so it’s all your own fault. That’s not fair to you.
[QUOTE=Kat]
It’s not so much not wanting to be cheered up, it’s more a case of “Eh, why bother? It won’t change anything, so it’s not worth the effort of even trying.”
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I’ve watched depression reach up from the depths of darkness and grab all of my family. This sentance perfectly encapsulates thirty years of what I call The Eeyore Effect.
[QUOTE=olivesmarch4th]
Depression, like all emotional states, like all of life, is impermanent, evolving, ebbing and flowing. tdn, I would gather, based on his past discussions of Zen, is talking about accepting depression as yet another inevitable but impermanent emotional state. I believe that our suffering is intensified when we try to reject something that is happening whether we want it to or not. Many people have found that when they accept their depressive states and stop resisting or judging, it opens up a spaciousness and a sense of self-compassion that allows them to relax and be okay with themselves. And once the ‘‘I’m okay just like this’’ thoughts start generating, the cycle of self-hatred is broken, the negative self-talk stops, and the depression lifts.
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Very well put. Accept it, feel it, and move on.
I’m reminded of a guy who has achieved some awesome success in his life despite some huge setbacks that no one should have to suffer. He talks about how it’s OK to throw yourself a pity party. Feel all depressed, sad, pitiful, bummed out, suicidal, whatever. Set an egg timer. You have 15 minutes, then move on.
OK, stop that. When your thoughts go that far, recognize them for what they are, and realize that you’re just being silly. It’s times like that that you have to remember that you are not your suicidal thoughts, but that you are you and that your depression is just a thing. An object. It’s less permanent than gum on your shoe.
If I may suggest, learn the Sanskrit word for “permanent”, and when you have suicidal thoughts, grab a magic marker and write that word on your belly. Giggle at the irony.
[QUOTE=lobotomyboy63]
2) I think I’m reality-based, which could make anybody depressed. I bet other depressives will resonate: when someone gets all chirpy about life, I wonder, ‘Are you not paying attention to some of the shit that’s going down?’
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This hits really close to home regarding this philosophy that I’ve been playing around with lately and that olives alludes to. Yeah, there’s some bad shit going down. We’re in an unjust war, homophobia is rampant, we’re destroying the environment, yada yada yada. These are important problems and they need to be solved. But are they affecting me right now? No. What’s my reality right now? I’m sitting in front of my computer, typing a message to some really cool people. The weather is warm. I feel good. I have a great song running through my head. I’m looking at a really nice painting that I did, and it’s hanging up on my wall. And I’m happy with all of that.
Let me ask (in the most respectful way), which of us is more reality-based?
I’m not as eloquent as tdn and olives, but I agree with pretty much everything they said.
I’ve learned to love myself, even the ugly bits, unconditionally. Folks who tell me “Oh, cheer up. It’s not the end of the world. It’ll get better!” seem (to my mind, at least) to be invalidating my feelings. The people who know me best understand my ned to work through my problems on my own. If they leave me to it, not only will I feel better faster (less time wasted on being annoyed at the well-wishers) but I also usually have learned something from the experience.
Great thread; this made my day!!
[QUOTE=Inigo Montoya]
This whole drive to fight, to believe in the absence of evidence … It sounds like, when you’re down, you can still see a reason to carry on. that you are sure enough of yourself to believe the depression is worth conquering because there can be a payoff, even though you may not know what it is at the time.
I’m not one to say you’ve never been depressed or anything but, well, have you never found yourself unable to fight? That there IS no payoff and that even if there were, you are not worthy of it? That it would be a mercy to the rest of the world to withdraw your sorry ass from the race and let someone else have your place in line because, face it, wouldn’t it be a waste of a break to give it to you?
Cheer me up when I’m down? You’re just rubbing my nose in the “fact” that I’m incapable and unworthy of any positive outlook. You will not appear to be caring, quite the opposite.
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Heh. I carry on for two reasons: 1) Because my husband has stood by me with very little in the way of reward through 15 years of this living death, and I keep trying to find that one thing that will make it possible for me to give something back to him, and 2) because I have promised 4 creatures on Earth besides my husband that I would care for them for the rest of their lives. (It was 5 up until recently—tick, tick, tick.) I don’t know if the 2nd reason would be enough to hold me if the 1st ceases to be, but I sincerely hope so, because my integrity is one of the last things I have left.
I have reached that point you referred to, and that’s when I got to find out how much fun it is to be put on a ventilator (and then to be taken off a ventilator :eek: ). I have a multitude of ways to keep myself from falling over that brink again, some of which are quite simply insane, but they have worked so far.
[QUOTE=freekalette]
The people who know me best understand my ned to work through my problems on my own.
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Stupid Flanders.
[QUOTE=freekalette]
Folks who tell me “Oh, cheer up. It’s not the end of the world. It’ll get better!” seem (to my mind, at least) to be invalidating my feelings.
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That may be what they’re doing, but I’d bet money that that’s not their intention. It may be that they are trying to improve their own environment, as was mentioned above. It may be that they never get depressed and just don’t understand it. It may even be that they think they’re genuinely helping. In fact, I’d bet that the last one is most often the right one.
But yeah, while someone is well-intentioned when they do that, they are really just annoying. It’s like when you have a coughing spell and someone decides to help you by hitting you on the back.
Sure, it’s easy-peasy right now to say “Y’know, they are just trying to help me out!”
But try telling that to me when I’m depressed - and irrational - and it’s a whole 'nother story.
[QUOTE=guizot]
It’s about inaction for it’s own sake. While anxiety might lead to depression over time, it’s not equivalent to depression.
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I just want to point out that there is one psychological model in which this really doesn’t make sense. Please note that it’s not a definitive model, but I think it’s pretty sound. Also note that the type of depression it addresses is cognitive, not chemical.
Life is full of stressors, and they come in many forms, but they all fall into one of two categories, hurt and loss. The vast majority are hurt. Usually there’s no real loss, unless someone dies or you get a huge bill in the mail. (Loss of a person, loss of money.) Keep in mind that these stressors don’t have to actually manifest themselves to be real. An imagined loss is every bit as real, emotionally, as actual loss. We’ve all known people that get stressed over an unwritten future, right?
A person with a strong emotional structure can usually ignore these stressors. It’s just being thick-skinned. But every now and then a stressor gets in, and we have to deal with it. When hurt gets in, it transforms into anger. When loss gets in, it transforms into fear. Those are really the only two kinds of negative emotional energy.
Hurt -> Anger
Loss -> Fear
When we get these types of negative emotions, we need to do something with them. We need to make a decision. We can either make a positive decision or a negative decision. The positive decision trees look like this:
Hurt -> Anger -> Nurturing -> Well-being
Loss -> Fear -> Courage -> Confidence
Well-being + Confidence = Self Esteem
Self Esteem = Happiness
What happens if we don’t do anything with those emotions? That is, if we fail to make any decision at all? Anger, as has been mentioned before, turns into depression. Fear turns into anxiety.
Depression != Well-being
Anxiety != Confidence
So it’s not that anxiety turns into depression, it’s more like depression’s ugly sister.
[QUOTE=freekalette]
Sure, it’s easy-peasy right now to say “Y’know, they are just trying to help me out!”
But try telling that to me when I’m depressed - and irrational - and it’s a whole 'nother story.
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Why is that so? I’m not disagreeing, I’m genuinely curious. It’s as if you and the “helper” are coming from completely different mindsets where communication becomes almost impossible. It’s very strange.
Anyone want to take a stab at it?
[QUOTE=tdn]
Why is that so? I’m not disagreeing, I’m genuinely curious. It’s as if you and the “helper” are coming from completely different mindsets where communication becomes almost impossible. It’s very strange.
Anyone want to take a stab at it?
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Here’s my take (YMMV, blah blah blah)…
As I said, when I’m depressed, my brain doesn’t work rationally. I’m not really sure why; perhaps it’s like a sort of inverted version of “rose-colored glasses,” if you will. When Helper (be it friend, family member, or otherwise) notices my mood, and tries to help, it takes every once of thinking power to process what they are saying. There’s nothing left upstairs to think it through as to why they’re telling me to cheer up; my brain just knows that they think I shouldn’t be in a bad mood, which is - obviously - not helpful to me. Luckily, the Helpers closest to me understand this, and know to give me my space until I can work through my problem(s) on my own.
Apologies for being bad at explaining things; it’s one of many shortcomings. (But I’m not depressed by it, at least!)
That makes sense. I think that there’s a reverse of that as well. Personally, when I’m in a good mood, I just can’t grok depression. Why on Earth would anyone choose to be sad? Odd, being that I’ve been depressed often enough.
My own stab at it, which has been mentioned earlier:
Depression (big or little D) doesn’t come from nowhere. There’s something behind it–what doesn’t matter, as it differs from person to person. Telling me to ‘cheer up’ when I’m feeling down doesn’t address those emotions. In fact, it ignores them. The unspoken message, intended or not, is that your problem doesn’t matter, you shouldn’t be feeling down and you should be able to choose to be in a better mood. It doesn’t even try to help you work through the issue, so there’s a sense that the person doesn’t care about you (If you’re like me and have social issues, that’s what made you feel down in the first place).
So basically, the message you get is ‘suck it up’. Which is about as helpful as telling a bullied kid to ‘ignore them’.
People don’t need to bury their emotions–they need to work through them. Trying to cheer a person up without addressing that is probably pointless if not counter-productive.