Can I ask something here Polycarp? I am asking this specifically of you, because from what I have seen you will not tear into me, but give a reasoned response.
You say here ‘by definition’. And I know that in the OP Bippy did mention omniscience as a property of said God for this debate. But, in what way does omniscience or omnipotence (and I think the two properties are mutually exclusive, but that is a different debate) necessarily imply what we would term good morality?
<all possible worlds argument>
I can envisage a god who has those properties yet is a moral monster.
</all possible worlds argument>
I kind of like the way the ancient Greeks viewed their gods - with human foibles.
What are your thoughts on this? Particulalry as it pertains to the differences between the OT and the NT God
If I’m following you right, you’re saying that the God you worship is good because you know His characteristics. But if there is no standard of good and evil that transcends God, how is it possible to make such a determination?
I don’t see a definition in the OP other than “Omniscient, All Powerful, creator of the Universe”. What keeps such a being from being evil? What if there are millions of gods each with their own universe? Some of them are kids and some of them are dults. Some of them torture their universe’s inhabitants and some of them treat them well. Good and evil have definitions. Being omnicient or extremely powerful does not change the definitions. It may change yours, but not mine. Personally if there exists a god who tortures sentient creatures willingly, I don’t give a rats ass whether he calls it good or evil, he’s a sisck fuck. And if I ever have the means, I will attempt to reason with it. If I am unable to reason (and I ever have the means available) I will attempt to destroy this entity and free this universe from the tryanny of a cruel designer.
I see no reason to accept that being a masterful designer means said designer must be good or moral, nor any reason to accept that they get to define what those terms mean.
No, I’m saying that the God I worship is omnibenevolent and forgiving, full of love and slow to anger, (which clarifies another question asked of me in this thread) – and the hypothetical Omniwrathful God à la Jonathan Edwards and Jerry Falwell of the OP would not consider me as one of his worshippers and therefore would have cast me down into the Pit with the rest of us sinners. (But that’s not all bad – at least we’d have Lynn Bodoni running things! ;))
Poly but what about a Homophobic God? One who is mostly forgiving and kind but for some reason you cannot fathom, hates Gay people? Now such a God isn’t all vengefull, but would I susspect to you and me seem to be morally lacking in one area at least.
I think you’re all missing the point that it doesn’t matter at all how much good you did in your life. The fact that you’re gay or not doesn’t in any way effect whether or not one goes to heaven. The reason someone goes to heaven is because they believe that Jesus is their savior. In fact, although I don’t recall the specific verse, I do know with 100% certainty that God in fact refers to good deeds as filthy rags. They are meaningless to him because if you don’t believe that Jesus is the messiah, then you are damned not because of your sins (or lack of them), as Jesus died for those, but for Adam’s original sin.
Only Mr Urt in your particular deffinition of God. (and you are in the minority, there are far more non-Christians than Christians, and many Christians don’t feel as you do). As I do believe in Jesus being a savior would I get into your heaven? If I did, and if it means Hitler is there in Heaven, but Gandhi is not, then I would refuse that heaven as being in reality Hell, and I would oppose such an Evil God with all that exists of me.
I realize I am in the minority, but I don’t see how other Christians can refuse this idea when it specifically states in the Bible (John 3:16), “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.” Therefore, yes, if you were to truely believe in that Jesus is the messiah, then you would go to heaven (btw, how are you so sure that Hitler believed¿).
Well, not to sure about Hitler, but you have to admit there have been several pretty nasty believers throughout history (no one ecpects the Spanish Inquisition
Ah but the bible was writeen by man, and man is fallable …
(yeah, we don’t need that argument again, I respect if you believe the bible is infallable, but that is not part of my belief structure)
B.T.W. I may well be missing out on your heaven, I see Jesus as a saviour (one who saves us from sin) but not as the (only) messiah (I believe we are all equally sons and daughters of God, so we are all to some extent messiah’s). I’d love to have more discussion on your ideas about this… but not in this thread please
Cheers. Bippy
Originally posted by blowero
If I’m following you right, you’re saying that the God you worship is good because you know His characteristics. But if there is no standard of good and evil that transcends God, how is it possible to make such a determination?
And aren’t omnibenevolence and forgiveness characteristics? Tell me where I’ve gone astray, because what I am getting from you is that a loving and forgiving God is good, but a vengeful God would be bad. And you seem to be saying that the God you worship is loving and forgiving, and therefore good. Again, this implies a standard of good and bad outside of God.
If God is good by definition, then any kind of God would have to be good, even a malevolent God. If God is not good by definition, then there must be some standard of good against which to judge God.
Well, fine. The fact that they are the creator of everything means that they get to define what everything is and what everything they are. They get to establish the moral codes, etc., in the universe. What actions are moral, they decide. That’s part of the deal. If you don’t accept it then you have to assume there is a higher power than God. But once you do that, suddenly, God isn’t the highest power in the universe and you have changed the definition of God. This is not a difficult concept and only your utter inability to think rationally about religious topics stops you from realizing this - as that immature little rant at the end of your first paragraph helps to demonstrate.
Second, which is it? You said that everything is relative. But apparently you don’t believe that as you just stated that good and evil have absolute definitions. Or are you just throwing everything but the kitchen sink at a topic in order to get something to stick?
[Nitpick]
Actually, God by definition didn’t design everything.
[/Nitpick]
And presumably DJ believes that while ‘Thou shall not be a sicketh fuck’ is not writ in letters deep as a spear is tall on the trunk of the world tree, it’s still wrong, if only in his/her estimation.
No, they don’t. They get to have one and so do I. They are relative. From where I’m standing anyone who tortures anything sentient is evil. So many of the religious fight me tooth and nail on this one. I’m not surpirsed to see you defending your god’s right to do evil and call it good, but I’m not impressed. Sheep who follow “The Claw” in the sky (or the “Him” or the “Eris” or the whatever-the-fuck) into any evil it may wish to engage in (all the while cheering) are exactly the ones that make me fear the religious. For who knows what they will do if they are convinced that their god wanted them to kill or torture someone. If you can be convinced that good isn’t good because “God” says it isn’t, I think you are potentially dangerous. I’m not saying you particularly are dangerous, I don’t know you that well, rather the belief that “God gets to define good.” could be (and has been) used to get people to do some pretty fucked up things to each other.
Well, the definitions are relative, but the point I was trying to make was that there is a general consensus, among the only intelligent species we know, that holds certain things are evil (torture or murder) and good (babies or Gyros).
Those definitions and common views do exist. The fact that “goodness” can be relative - ala “what’s good for a cock-roach isn’t good for a man” - doesn’t mean that our frame of reference is invalid, only that it is different. If we figure everything out all the way up to the top (a destiny I think humanity may be able to achieve - it’s optimistic, not immature) and we find a being sitting up there who meets the commonly accepted definition of “evil”, then we need to try figure out a way take it’s power and use it for good. Maybe the old Lucifer was misunderstood after all. Perhaps he has the right idea, just not the weaponry. I don’t really know. As far as I’m concerned it’s a riddle still unsolved. However, I see no reason that the most powerful being in the universe has to be good (using the commonly accepted definitions I was talking about earlier). It only has to be powerful.
well, forgive the hijack, but I just wanted to say that I was being quite unclear in using the term “messiah.” I ment he is THE messiah, meaning he’s the physical son of God. I do also believe that all believers are children of God.
Hmmmm, I wonder about something. Suppose that someone believed that god exists, but also thought god was nasty, fickle, unjust, and unworthy of reverence. (For example, IMHO the Judeo-Christian god is all of those things, but I don’t believe in it.) God in this sense would be like a dictator of questionable virtues, by our standards at least, and also one that by his very nature could not be overthrown. Suppose that this person believed in hell and wished to avoid god’s wrath because the punishment is severe. In the real world, we can just play along with a dictator so as not to incur his wrath. If god were omniscient, there’s no way to hide from him your conclusion that he is unfair and somewhat nasty. So if someone disagreed with god’s morals, but yet wanted to somehow avoid his wrath, could he?
Saint Thomas Aquinas did a very famous proof in which he tried to show that by his very nature of being an omnipotent creature God must be all loving. I will try to find it.
