In this thread (Discussing a religious message in a Sunday newspaper cartoon.) Captain Amazing writes:
Yes, I do know that’s a weird sentiment.
Isn’t it funny how uncomfortable we Americans are with the discussion of religion. It’s as if the seperation of church and state (never mentioned in the Constitution, of course, but that’s for another thread) was seperation of church and life.
Even for believers, God is so much like Santa Claus. We use him to explain to children where grandpa went when he died, and tell them that he is watching when they are bad. Other than that, we don’t mention him at all.
Of course, if you don’t believe in him, you wouldn’t mention him. What is odd, is how uncomfortable faith makes those who believe.
I wonder if this is as true in the rest of the world as it is here in the U.S.
The reason religion makes me so uncomfortable is its manifest saturation with politics and its incessant fighting over authority and other piddly shit.
Hmmm… I dunno, but perhaps a clue can be found here:
“Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God.” " — Jesus
Well, in that I’m the one quoted, let me give my perspective. Religion doesn’t make me uncomfortable. In fact, I’m perfectly, 100% comfortable with my religion. Other people’s religion doesn’t even tend to make me uncomfortable, but I just really don’t want to hear about it. Why? Because, 90% of the time, in my experience, people who start with “Let me tell you about my religion”, end with “And that’s why you should become a member.” Why did Hart’s cartoon make me uncomfortable? Because I’m not Christian, and because around Easter and Christmas, more than any other time, the fact that I’m not Christian comes up and slaps me in the face. Maybe that doesn’t make sense.
Because religion, almost by definition, deals with the most important imaginable things in existence.
If it is actually true that (for instance) Christianity is true, anyone who does not accept it is missing out on the whole point of human existence.
If it is actually true that (for instance) atheism is true, anyone who acts morally or claims any moral basis for any action is fooling himself.
These are fundamental principles. Anyone, religious, atheist, whatever, has to deal with the fact that, perhaps, what they believe is wrong. And no matter what you decide, it is a mighty unsettling thought.
Thank you for once again pointing out that atheists are, by definition, immoral, and that religion has sole ownership of morality. :rolleyes:
I am uncomfortable with mention of religion because of the attitudes of the people who tend to mention it.
Thank you for once again pointing out that atheists are, by definition, immoral, and that religion has sole ownership of morality.**
Say what?! I have never explicitly stated that atheists are immoral or have no moral base. If, by reading my postings, you believe that I imply it, I’ve mis-interpreted what I was saying.
My response to Kid_Gilligan was more of a response to his implication that any mention of rellgion was automatically talking about Judeo/Christian religion.
That doesn’t make me uncomfortable at all – but then again, I’m not made uncomfortable by the homeless drunk sleeping in the alley who mutters that the blue-skinned Venusians are out to get him, either.
Let’s think about this: right is right, and wrong is wrong, only because God said so? So, if God had said that murder is right, or if he had remained silent on the subject, murder would be okay, or at least a morally neutral act?
Usual response: “God would never say that murder is okay!” Well, if he’s the source of good and evil, why not? There’s nothing forcing him to go one way or the other.
Unless, of course, there’s some REASON, aside from God’s decree, that murder is wrong, and God was just passing along the information. And if that is the case, we should be able to figure out the “why” without bringing God into it, don’t ya think?
It depends upon context.
I am an atheist who counts among his closest friends/college buddies a rabbi, a Catholic theology professor, and an ex-Jesuit. I have repeatedly had very informed, intense and meaningful discussions of religion with them (though when two or three of them are in the room together, the conversation often gets beyond my limited comprehension).
Obviously, despite my atheistic status, I am comfortable with religion (and, on occasion, envious of my believing friends.) However, in day to day life, discussion/proclamations of religion often make me uncomfortable for the following reasons (in descending order):
An assumption is made that others share the speaker’s religious belief;
Prostelytizing (hey, if the three above learned souls aren’t going to convert me, you think YOU can!!);
Usually unconsciously, the proclaimer states/implies that God granted special favors to him/her, at the expense of others (athletes, in particular); and
The person stating/proclaiming their faith and beliefs are DEAD FREAKING WRONG - not in terms of the existence/non-existence of God, but in terms of the tenets of their own religion. This one isn’t so much discomfort as embarrassment for the person - the old “it says so in the Bible” when it, in fact, doesn’t, etc. If a person like this tries to preach to me, I quickly go from embarrassment to disgust.
Unfortunately, most public displays of religion that I witness fall into one of these categories.
Just because you don’t believe in God doesn’t mean you don’t mention him…for instance, I’ve heard atheists answer my sneezes with “God Bless You.” And I’ve heard them cry out during … well, fill in the blanks - and note I’m married to an atheist. I don’t believe in Santa, but I still ask people what Santa brought them after Christmas.
Why does mention of God make people uncomfortable…? Perhaps because for many people belief is an extremly personal thing…Saying you “really feel the blessing of the Lord” to a “How are you” is kind of like me answering the same polite phrase with “Well, I have my period and I’m kind of bloated and crampy.” Too much information about your personal life, thank you very much. What you are looking for with “How are you” is “fine,” not a religious philosophy or a list of symptoms.
I suppose so. Of course, I’m no believer, so perhaps I’m missing something, but if you believe that a diety is the source for your particular moral code, then if the diety had said something different, or changed his mind (I mean, God could appear tomorrow and say “Murder is good”, right?), then that would be moral. After all, there is no universal morality, so being moral only involves following the precipts of a particular moral code. And persumably anything could be in a hypothetical moral code. (Of course, I’d argue that some things are unlikely to appear in a popular moral code, as they decrease the stability of a society, but that supposes a different reason for the existance of morals.)
I agree with Libertarian that “[a]theists are fully capable of deriving an ethics set from any arbitrary premise”. If, for instance, you think that hurting others is wrong, or that people should be treated as you’d like to be treated, then you can create a full set of dos and don’ts from that. However, the question becomes why did you choose the initial premise that you did? And what is its validity versus other initial premises?
I have no doubts that other atheists can build a moral code that fully matches the traditional Judeo-Christian(sp?) one, however I don’t understand the desire to do so.
After considering my own question today, and reading replies, I think I may be able to answer my own question.
A few points to ponder.
In general, negative religious discussions do not create the level of discomfort I was describing. In other words, we are quite used to being berated about our sinful lifestyles and can pretty effectively filter out such nonsense. It is the positive comments that make us feel uncomfortable. I’m talking about those rare individuals who evangalize through example, hoping you will come to know their God because you see that they are happy in their life, and want the same for yourself. Not the more common type who tries to force their beliefs on others.
What makes us uncomfortable is the very act of bearing our soul. I can say that I love my wife, and no one will squirm. But if I start saying that my heart if filled with joy at the thought of being loved so completely by such a wonderful woman, people start to zone out.
Most people on this board would disagree that statements such as that would make THEM uncomfortable. That is because, by nature, people who waste their time on a message board are used to expressing themselves, and letting their feelings be known. Otherwise you wouldn’t be posting here.
It all depends on context, of course. I can discuss religion at length with friends or parents or teachers (went to a Jesuit High School, even) and not feel the least bit uncomfortable. On the other hand, I get apprehensive when the stranger on the bus asks me if I’m saved . . . because I’m sure that he isn’t going to like my answer, and lots of people take religious disagreements very seriously (in a bad way). It’s a vibes thing. That’s why religion and politics are the two things you don’t discuss in polite society (or so they say) – disagreements are likely to become heated.
