Why DOES the myth of the CSA Lost Cause persist?

Because pre-war, dating back to the formation of the Empire and even farther, to Prussia, both the Army and the political leaders had emphasised that the Prussian / German Army was the strongest on the Continent.

The Army had carefully planned for both the western front and the eastern front, and supported/pushed for the decision to go to war on two fronts. It was not a unilateral decision by the government.

Ergo, it could win any continental war.

Ergo, if Germany lost the war, it could not be the Army’s fault.

The mythology spread by the Army and the political figures both led to that result.

True, even when the Army ignored it’s own strategic advice.

Helmuth von Moltke (known as Moltke the Younger 1848-1916) was Chief of the Great German General Staff and led the German Army from 1 January 1906 to 14 September 1914. History doesn’t rate him as a resounding success.

It was his uncle Moltke the Elder (1800-1891) who, when the Field Marshall of Germany and also Chief of the Great German General Staff and generally much more highly rated, developed the military concept including what is now popularly known as “no military plan survives the first contact with the enemy”

Obviously they could have. Firebombing Hanoi to rubble, destroying every port and town from the air? Sending in whole divisions?

But the cost would have been huge, both financially and morally. We weren’t willing to pay that cost, and we should not have either. We should have stopped at aid and volunteer advisors.

Just replace ‘slaveholders’ with ‘labor-slaveholders/Capitalists’ and your words accurately describe the current US.

And that might well have resulted in war with China or the Soviet Union. Of resulted in a 30-year-long occupation that made Afghanistan look like a birthday party. There is no guarantee of victory there at all.

There’s an article in the Atlantic today addressing exactly this question. “Why Confederate lies live on”

That would be the linked article in the OP.

Yeah I don’t think it’s at all in question we could have killed far more Vietnamese in that war, and lost more of our own soldiers to boot. I do not necessarily think it follows that would have won us the war. It’s extremely non-trivial to take a country from a population willing to die to the last man to defend it. You might occupy most of the territory but it’ll never be “yours” and it’ll be a continuous drain on your country to maintain that occupation and fight incessant guerilla attacks and insurgencies.

Now was Vietnam willing to die to the last man? I dunno, but I think there is good evidence that the Vietnamese were willing to give up a lot to not be under the dominion of another country. China went to war with Vietnam not too long after we pulled out, and it didn’t go dramatically better for them. It’s actually estimated China lost a comparable number of men killed in battle during the three weeks of active combat in the Sino-Vietnamese war as we did in our entire time in Vietnam. China occupied a few northern cities and then withdrew. It should be fairly telling that China which in many ways had probably more advantages than we did in a war with Vietnam (shared land border, huge manpower and large standing army within easy distance of Vietnam, and a history of subjugating the Vietnamese going back to the far past) and kinda knew better than to really push matters much further than they did. Vietnam isn’t Panama or Iraq, it’s a much bigger country with a very long history of fighting people who attempt to subjugate it.

Not to derail the thread, but is it necessarily wrong to point out the prowess of a bad guy? We generally have no problem with pointing out the military cleverness of Romney or Yamamoto, for instance. Lee was indeed a shrewd commander, as long as one doesn’t gloss over the evils of the South, Nazis or Japan.

Except that we had no desire to occupy North Vietnam.

Rommel. Mitt wasn’t that clever.

Well, Lee was a wildly overrated general, while he was undeniably a skilled tactician, he was a terrible strategist. His myth also includes the lie that he was a decent man pulled into the war; Lee was a famously cruel slave owner, even among his slave owning peers.

Good cite!
Lee was a slave owner—his own views on slavery were explicated in an 1856 letter that is often misquoted to give the impression that Lee was some kind of abolitionist. In the letter, he describes slavery as “a moral & political evil,” but goes on to explain that:

> I think it however a greater evil to the white man than to the black race, & while my feelings are strongly enlisted in behalf of the latter, my sympathies are more strong for the former. The blacks are immeasurably better off here than in Africa, morally, socially & physically. The painful discipline they are undergoing, is necessary for their instruction as a race, & I hope will prepare & lead them to better things. How long their subjugation may be necessary is known & ordered by a wise Merciful Providence. Their emancipation will sooner result from the mild & melting influence of Christianity, than the storms & tempests of fiery Controversy.

The argument here is that slavery is bad for white people, good for black people, and most important, better than abolitionism; emancipation must wait for divine intervention. That black people might not want to be slaves does not enter into the equation; their opinion on the subject of their own bondage is not even an afterthought to Lee.

Not at all, as long as you don’t turn them into heroes. You don’t name schools, roads and awesome cars after villains, not even if they’re really good generals.

The building up of Lee is an important part of the Lost Cause mythology. He has been elevated to almost a saintly figure, when in fact he is personally responsible for some truly heinous acts. When the confederacy marched on Gettysburg, Lee ordered that free blacks be enslaved and carried back to the south.

There are layers and layers to the lies told about the Civil War all of them to reinforce white supremacy and make it more palatable to a wider audience. It creates this myth of the war as a noble chess match between two equal sides. Interestingly, living union veterans saw this for what it was and objected when a statue to Lee was erected at Gettysburg. Not surprisingly, they weren’t a fan of building statutes to traitors who killed US troops.

We also had no desire to firebomb Hanoi, if we want to go after hypothetical digressions in that line of thinking.

I’m fairly anti-Lee on a number of fronts, and very much against the false image of him conjured up by Lost Cause writers. But I also think as is typical when correcting a perceived wrong, people are going too far in the other direction. I would disagree that Lee was a “famously cruel” slaveowner. He owned slaves, and he had slaves beaten and whipped for misbehavior, he also advertised for the capture of runaway slaves. This does not actually constitute “famously cruel”, in fact it would be considered mainstream behavior by the entire slaveholding population of the United States during Lee’s lifetime and even by much of the non-slaveholding population.

Slavery is innately cruel, keeping slaves obedient requires extreme, evil cruelty. This is why slavery is an abominable practice. But when we go on to say someone was a famously cruel slaver, we’re saying that their activities in the standards of their time marked them out for infamous and unusual cruelty towards slaves. I do not see anything in the biography of Robert E. Lee that does that would justify that claim.

I also frankly do not believe it is untrue that he abhorred slavery. I think given a lot of the textual evidence at hand, we know that that was not a particularly unusual sentiment. Particularly for someone of Lee’s background–an educated southerner who wasn’t born into a great slaveholding family (he was born into a moderate one-and in fact around the time of Robert’s birth his father had to do time in debtor’s prison and mostly fell into permanent financial ruin and abandoned Robert and his wife and other children to go live in the West Indies), but Lee did marry into a family with more substantial slaveholdings.

From all historical evidence Lee did genuinely believe in ultimate emancipation, but was not anywhere close to an abolitionist. He and members of his family financially supported the American Colonization Society, which sought to emancipate and emigrate slaves to Liberia, and he sponsored several slaves along that path.

Lee was also a white supremacist and a racist–entirely in line with almost the entirety of the Western world in the mid-19th century (even most white abolitionists were extreme white supremacists by modern standards–those few who were not stand out as shining lights in the darkness but represents a very small portion of white society in the era); and his views were not particularly unusual. There were a few currents of thought about the practice of owning slavery. Some pro-slavery whites viewed it as a “positive good” because of the belief blacks could not live productively left to their own devices. Lee’s view was not that one, Lee and his wife had extensive letters that show they viewed slavery as a moral evil, but their focus was much more of a white supremacist view. While they thought the practice of slavery was a stain on white men’s souls, he did not feel that this justified putting the interests of blacks ahead of whites. He only supported vague and non-specific longer term gradual emancipation, and strongly opposed anything that would have caused economic harm to people like him and the South.

I’m not super interested in an argument about “what that makes Robert Lee”, I don’t feel compelled to think too much about that. Lee was a product of his times, my typical interest in him is from a military perspective and to disabuse people of various myths and delusions promoted about him by Lost Cause writers. But I do think it is not supported by historical fact that Lee was any “especial” type of villain contemporary to other people of his time.

From The Atlantic article

Pryor writes that “Lee ruptured the Washington and Custis tradition of respecting slave families” by hiring them off to other plantations, and that “by 1860 he had broken up every family but one on the estate, some of whom had been together since Mount Vernon days.” The separation of slave families was one of the most unfathomably devastating aspects of slavery, and Pryor wrote that Lee’s slaves regarded him as “the worst man I ever see.”

I do not believe this makes Lee a particularly cruel slaver by the standards of his time. In fact the sentimentality behind not breaking up slave families in the Custis extended family tree (which goes back to George Washington and particularly his wife and her first husband) is more of an aberration than a standard. And while Washington did not deliberately break up slave families, he himself had no issue paying for the capture of runaway slaves and their vicious physical punishment.

I’d also note that at least part of the reason Lee broke up slave families is he was tasked with financially cleaning up the accounts of an estate to which his wife was heir, to comply with terms of a will (part of the terms of that will actually required manumission of his wife’s inherited slaves. I’ll note that the Atlantic article, based on my other readings of Lee’s responsibilities in regards to the Custis will and the settlement of that estate, somewhat misrepresents Lee’s activities there. For example like most slave plantations the Custis inheritance was encumbered with debts, and Lee could not have just set all the slaves free without settling those, they represented legal property to which debtors had claim if the debts could not be settled (at various times, banks were the largest slaveholders in America for reasons such as this.) Virginia and all the other Southern states also required lengthy conditions be met before any slave was manumitted, which usually included a provisions of the slave holder providing some amount of money for their upkeep and emigration out of the state.

Lee also appeared to deeply hate the time in which he was basically pressed into life as a planter and running a slave plantation (which occupied several years in the middle of his life largely as a result of inheritances of his wife); from my reckoning he mostly just hated the “lifestyle”, he did not enjoy managing a plantation or managing slaves. I don’t think this was because he felt bad about the lot of the slaves so much as he found the work unengaging and unenjoyable.

I have very little defense for Lee’s conduct during the war, but still don’t find it out of ordinary pernicious, considering some eleven states and most of their people were united in the cause. That doesn’t excuse Lee, but it also doesn’t make him a special villain to my mind.

When I was a kid, my family had the World book encyclopedia, with the “childcraft” books. Several of the childcrafts had stories about individuals in history, followed by a little blurb trying to put the individuals into the historical context.

There were two that I remember at the time finding a bit odd: one was about a group of undercover agents stealing a train behind enemy lines during the Civil War, and one was about a young US soldier in the US-Mexican war, who later went on to be a general in the Civil War.

The odd thing was that the undercover agents stealing the train were Confederates, and the story makes it clear that this was a Good Thing, a daring war-time measure executed at great risk. (although some of them got caught and hanged.)

The young soldier was Robert Lee, and the blurb indicated he went on to be a terrific general, although on the Confederate side.

I don’t remember any stories about Union soldiers or generals in the series.

Even at the time I remember thinking it a bit odd that the guys who fought against the United States got their stories told.

Is it possible the encyclopedia had a positive take on the story because it was actually Union soldiers hijacking a Confederate train?

There was a silent movie called “The General” in which a Confederate nebbish (Buster Keaton) steals back The General, becomes a hero and wins his girl - a fantasy retelling I can excuse because it’s such a good movie.

Tell that to the Germans

(That was a joke. The VW Fox is not awesome. Also, it shouldn’t need saying, not named after Rommel)