Why Does the West Bank Need to be Ethnically Cleansed?

[Dissonance]

@tomndebb

I do not recall ever suggesting that Germany should be excused for the twelve million deaths they caused above and beyond the military casualties. However, your posts read as though what was inflicted on the people of Prussia was justifiable. When you make a plea for “context” and you ignore the fact that it was the Soviet Union that ordered the expulsions, that it was the Soviet Union that told the Poles what to say about the matter, and that the expulsions, (just coincidentally, of course), allowed the Soviets to extend their borders far to the West while using Poland to push Germany’s Eastern border a similar distance West, your claim appears to be rationalization to punish any Germans who happened to be handy, regardless of specific guilt.
If it was supposed to be some sort of legitimate claim based on Nazi actions, then you need to explain why it was OK to do that to Prussians while the Bavarians, Saxons, Hanoverians, Westphalians, Thuringians, Hessians, and other German populations were not subjected to anything similar.

I give, we’re obviously talking past each other and not actually reading anything that was written. If you want what I’ve written to read as if what was done to Germanic peoples in Prussia, etc was justifiable after I’ve said it wasn’t just, or the right thing to do, or that it was “brutally unfair that people who just happened to be of Germanic decent and had fuck all to do with Nazi policies were expelled from their homes,” so be it.

With regards to

your claim appears to be rationalization to punish any Germans who happened to be handy, regardless of specific guilt

I’m not trying to rationalize it or say that it was ok. As I’ve said repeatedly, it’s simply that the expulsion of Germanic peoples didn’t occur in a void. Europe as a whole and central/eastern Europe in particular had just gone through insanely massive violence at the hands of the Germans. Pretty much anything east of the pre-war German border had undergone massive genocide and ethnic cleansing. And honestly, that I had to cite to you that massive ethnic cleansing that was done in Poland alone is well – odd. No doubt at all the USSR used everything to it’s advantage, and I’m not trying to defend the USSR or communism at all – but the USSR exploiting it doesn’t make for example the murder and ethnic cleansing of 1/6th of the Polish population cease to exist. And that it was very much the least of what the Nazis planned, had they won the war, every Pole would have been murdered or deported inside 10 or 20 years and replaced with German colonists.

I’m really tempted to backspace over everything I’ve written – I never intended to suggest that you excused the 12 million deaths that Germany caused to civilians, or that the expulsion of Germanic peoples from Prussia was justified. Anyway, there it is.

[reef_shark]

@brazil84

My impression is that some of the peace proposals involving Israel entail removing some or all of the Jewish settlements on the West Bank. Isn’t this ethnic cleansing? And haven’t we been told that ethnic cleansing is bad?

If there are Jewish settlers who wish to stay in the area regardless of which government is in control, shouldn’t their wishes be respected? And shouldn’t they be allowed to take part in said government?

“Peace proposals” and “ethnic cleansing” cannot coexist peacefully. People would be lined up in the gutter face down ready to be shot if it was ethnic cleansing. If you disagree let me know I will provide examples.

Hey i believe the Texas Station Casino witheld my week 2 ticket of the NFL because jay cutler threw an incomplete pass. Well guess what. All yalll are d bags

[antechinus]

Brazil84 must know that the Israeli’s are the ones guilty of ethnic cleansing. I suspect he is trying to spin the argument towards the Israelis being the victim as a cynical attempt to distract from the real concern - that is, the ethnic cleansing by Israel targeting the Palestinians.
By applying the term ‘ethnic cleansing’ to resettlement of illegal Jewish settlers in Palestine by Israeli government you only diminish the seriousness of the term.

[Dissonance]

I found a number for the German colonists moved into Poland. How’s 625,000 sound?

Arthur Greiser

As Gauleiter for the Warthegau and Lodz, he was in charge of the mass deportation and extermination of Jews and Poles to provide room for Germans from the Baltic States, Volhynia, the Balkans and the Reich proper.

As a result of his measures the German population in his region swelled from 325,000 in 1939 to almost 950,000 by the end of 1943.

[brazil84]

@tomndebb

Both. That is why I have stopped short of describing your actions as trolling.

To the extent you are posting as a regular poster, you are completely wrong, as is obvious to anyone who reads my original post.

To the extent you are posting as a moderator, I am of course sorry if I have broken any rules.

Clarifying what is and is not ethnic cleansing is also a useful exercise.

I think this is true too. And by the way, I just learned that there is a serious political party in Israel called Yisrael Beiteinu which advocates policies aimed at reducing the number of arabs living in Israel.

For example, by advocating a peace deal which entails ceding sovereignty over parts of current Israel which are heavily Arab.

[brazil84]

@antechinus

Brazil84 must know that the Israeli’s are the ones guilty of ethnic cleansing.

Let’s assume this is is true for the sake of argument. So what?

By applying the term ‘ethnic cleansing’ to resettlement of illegal Jewish settlers in Palestine by Israeli government you only diminish the seriousness of the term.

How would you define “ethnic cleansing”? And what do you mean by “Palestine?”

[DSeid]

@brazil84

For example, by advocating a peace deal which entails ceding sovereignty over parts of current Israel which are heavily Arab.

And in so far as those are Arab-Israelis who have no desire to be ceded over to a nascent Palestinian state it is indeed an ethnic cleansing proposal.

[brazil84]

@DSeid

And in so far as those are Arab-Israelis who have no desire to be ceded over to a nascent Palestinian state it is indeed an ethnic cleansing proposal.

By my definition of “ethnic cleansing,” I would agree. The next question to ask is whether that’s such a terrible thing, assuming that it’s accomplished peacably. One can assume that there are a lot of Israeli Arabs who would greatly prefer to live under Jewish rule than Arab rule.

[DSeid]

Indeed the fact is that they do not want to give up being Israeli.

He also proposes a repartition of Palestine so that areas of Israel with large Arab populations can be transferred to the Palestinian Authority in return for areas of the West Bank settled by Jews. The Arab communities in question are unanimously and vehemently opposed to the plan.

The answer is that it would be such a terrible thing.

[tomndebb]

@brazil84

To the extent you are posting as a regular poster, you are completely wrong, as is obvious to anyone who reads my original post.

Your original post made a claim that you failed to substantiate, using ambiguous, but incendiary, language that begged the question.

It is hardly the worst OP on the SDMB or GD, but it is an example of the sort of thing that leads to virulent exchanges rather than resolving issues.

[brazil84]

@tomndebb

Your original post made a claim that you failed to substantiate, using ambiguous, but incendiary, language that begged the question.

It is hardly the worst OP on the SDMB or GD, but it is an example of the sort of thing that leads to virulent exchanges rather than resolving issues.

Again, I am not sure whether you are posting as a moderator or a regular poster.

To th extent you are posting as a regular poster, I am not going to engage with you any further.

[The_Flying_Dutchman]

Let us start with the OP

@brazil84

My impression is that some of the peace proposals involving Israel entail removing some or all of the Jewish settlements on the West Bank.

I don’t think anyone can dispute that statement

Isn’t this ethnic cleansing?

I thought so. So I checked “ethnic cleansing” on Google, clicking “definition” and got

The systematic elimination of an ethnic group or groups from a region or society, as by deportation, forced emigration, or genocide.

I’d say you nailed it on two counts.
To be fair to tomndebb, the site also has this to say

A contentious and ill-defined term used extensively from May 1992 onwards by the international media, Western politicians and diplomats to describe a systematic policy of mass killings, deportation, rape, internment, and intimidation engaged in by rival ethnic groups of the former Yugoslav republic of Bosnia-Hercegovina with the goal of rendering ethnically mixed areas homogeneous and thereby establishing a de facto claim on ethnic grounds to sovereignty over disputed territory.

So you see, the exact definition hasn’t really settled down into something everyone can agree on. I go with you on this one, because the two words each are clearly defined.

And haven’t we been told that ethnic cleansing is bad?

Yes, but if it solves intractable problems it may very well be a good thing.

If there are Jewish settlers who wish to stay in the area regardless of which government is in control, shouldn’t their wishes be respected? And shouldn’t they be allowed to take part in said government?

Not really. That scenario is not going to work.

@tomndebb

Actually, your whole thread is some sort of meta-debate. You started off with a claim that there were proposals for “ethnic cleansing” of Jewish settlers on the West Bank. You have provided no evidence that ethnic cleansing has actually been proposed. And you later admit that you are applying an idiolectic version of the phrase “ethnic cleansing” that would not be recognized by anyone else in the discussion.

Making up a definition, (that you do not explain until three pages into the discussion), based on an assertion that you have not actually supported sounds pretty “meta-” to me.

Now, if other posters wish to dance to your tune, I am willing to let them, but please do not pretend that you are doing anything other than what you have done.

I think you need to take a deep breath. Its a reasonable OP that I’ve considered myself given the uniqueness of a proposed ethnic deportation that is actually considered morally right. And, I looked up the word “idiolectic”. Its an adjective refering to speech patterns not definitions. Guadere’s Law strikes again!

[antechinus]

@brazil84

How would you define “ethnic cleansing”? And what do you mean by “Palestine?”

Ethnic Cleansing - As you have probably gathered by now there is no clear definition of the term. The definition does cover the deliberate and systematic destruction of a cultural group. It does NOT, however, simply cover removal of illegal immigrants or illegal settlers.

Palestine - If you come from one of the countries that do not recognise the State of Palestine, just think West Bank and Gaza.

Have you got it all worked out now?

[The_Flying_Dutchman]

@antechinus

Ethnic Cleansing - As you have probably gathered by now there is no clear definition of the term. The definition does cover the deliberate and systematic destruction of a cultural group. It does NOT, however, simply cover removal of illegal immigrants or illegal settlers.

No? Tell that to the Rev. Miguel Rivera of the National Coalition of Latino Clergy.

Latino supporters are up in arms about the way the state now views illegal immigrants who have been here for many years.

"You are guilty of ethnic cleansing in this community!

[brazil84]

@The_Flying_Dutchman

Yes, but if it solves intractable problems it may very well be a good thing. Not really. That scenario is not going to work.

In your view, why wouldn’t it work? Is it because Palestinian Arabs could not be trusted to tolerate a Jewish minority?

[brazil84]

@antechinus

Ethnic Cleansing - As you have probably gathered by now there is no clear definition of the term. The definition does cover the deliberate and systematic destruction of a cultural group. It does NOT, however, simply cover removal of illegal immigrants or illegal settlers.

The problem is, who gets to decide what is illegal and what is legal? For example, the United States, in theory, could pass the necessary laws to expel illegal aliens as well as those descended from illegal aliens. The net effect would be to get rid of lots and lots of ethnic Mexicans. To me, that would be ethnic cleansing. To you, apparently not.

Palestine - If you come from one of the countries that do not recognise the State of Palestine, just think West Bank and Gaza.

If that’s what you mean, then that’s what you mean. To me, “Palestine” has a broader meaning.

[The_Flying_Dutchman]

@brazil84

In your view, why wouldn’t it work? Is it because Palestinian Arabs could not be trusted to tolerate a Jewish minority?

The only reason the IDF is in the occupied territory is to defend the settlers.
The Palestinians do not want to tolerate Jewish enclaves. They might tolerate a powerless Jew here and there.

[brazil84]

@The_Flying_Dutchman

The Palestinians do not want to tolerate Jewish enclaves. They might tolerate a powerless Jew here and there.

See, that I have a problem with. The United States tolerates Jewish enclaves. Canada tolerates Jewish enclaves. The United Kingdom tolerates Jewish enclaves. Israel tolerates non-Jewish enclaves.

If the Palestinian Arabs cannot abide by the standards of liberal, western nations, then why do they deserve any respect? (As a group, I mean.)

Or conversely, if it’s somehow desirable to eject Jews from the West Bank, then why would it be so terrible to push non-Jews out of Israel proper?

[The_Flying_Dutchman]

@brazil84

See, that I have a problem with. The United States tolerates Jewish enclaves. Canada tolerates Jewish enclaves. The United Kingdom tolerates Jewish enclaves. Israel tolerates non-Jewish enclaves.

None of these Jews you mention and none of the non-Jews of Israel live in their countries illegally. The Jewish settlers however relied on an illegal occupying force to gain access to Palestinian land. No permission from any Palestiniam authority. They are illegal. What is your position on undocumented Mexican workers in the US? Should they be deported ?

If the Palestinian Arabs cannot abide by the standards of liberal, western nations, then why do they deserve any respect? (As a group, I mean.)

If the US cannot abide by the standards of liberal western nation should I disrespect your country? I’m thinking of Gitmo, 40 million people without health insurance, prohibition of gay marriage etc.

Or conversely, if it’s somehow desirable to eject Jews from the West Bank, then why would it be so terrible to push non-Jews out of Israel proper?

Because they are there legally.

[brazil84]

@The_Flying_Dutchman

None of these Jews you mention and none of the non-Jews of Israel live in their countries illegally. The Jewish settlers however relied on an illegal occupying force to gain access to Palestinian land. No permission from any Palestiniam authority. They are illegal.

Exactly which law are they violating and who enacted that law?

What is your position on undocumented Mexican workers in the US? Should they be deported ?

I don’t know . . . probably yes.

If the US cannot abide by the standards of liberal western nation should I disrespect your country?

Perhaps, but I don’t think failure to have gay marriage and national health care and the like falls in the same ballpark as stuff like persecuting religious and ethnic minorities.