“Luc, be as it may, rather than trying to silence JDL or any other group trying to remind people of past horors, try to speak more about other Holocausts which you think have been not spoken of loudly enough. Some people definetely do not know about them. Ask any Hutu or Tutsi.”
Peace, I’m not trying to silence anyone. I’m just offering an explanation for somebody’s observation.
There’s a difference between an argument about what is, and an argument about what should be.
Lus: Is this because certain Jews and Jewish groups go to great lengths to remind the world? White supremacists seem to think so. Certainly in America there are Jewish groups and individuals that seem to get the message across pretty clearly.
The last sentence, by itself, seems to be matter-of-factly. In the above context. White supremacist think that “Jews and” Jewish groups" are disproportionately vocal about the holocaust.
I’d like to think that you do not share this opinion.
BTW, if you noticed, the ADL and such are hyperactive supporters of “hurt” groups, such as SE Asian refugees,and the support is not only vocal.
Sorry about your mispelled handle, Luc Inadvertent and overlooked.
Futher, it should read: “In the above context, white supremacist …”
"In any event, it’s hard to dispute that the Jewish holocaust gets a lot of attention, more so than others.
Is this because certain Jews and Jewish groups go to great lengths to remind the world? White supremacists seem to think so. Certainly in America there are Jewish groups and individuals that seem to get the message across pretty clearly."
This is what I said, and I believe it’s clear enough.
“The last sentence, by itself, seems to be matter-of-factly. In the above context[, w]hite supremacist think that “Jews and” Jewish groups” are disproportionately vocal about the holocaust.
I’d like to think that you do not share this opinion."
Honestly, I don’t quite understand what you are trying to say here. But in any event, I don’t care to debate over what my opinion is. Nor do I care to explain myself repeatedly. What I said above speaks for itself.
From what I can read in the above posts, I can see no indication that lucwarm is in any way allying himself with white supremacist groups, and it’s just plain rude to imply otherwise. If you want to make such connections, don’t do it here: Do it in the Pit, or better yet, via e-mail. Let’s just turn down the heat in here a bit, OK?
OK, Chronos.
I reread the whole post. I do not consider Luc “whi…” or anything of the sort. Sorry for any misunderstanding. I’ll try it again:
Despite all the attention the Jewish holocaust got, many others happened. So, my message was: " There is no ‘too much’, ever."
Why is it we always look at others for what they did regarding atrocities; Japanese vs Chinese, Nazi’s vs Gypsies & Jews, Pol Pot (sp?) vs Cambodian people, etc? What about Andersonville, GA? Maybe we should spend more time making an assessment of ourselves first. – DD
Just a side note.
To compare one atrocity to another is demeaning to the survivors of such horrific events. Who are we to say to a holocaust survivor, " What you lived through was not nearly as bad as what Chen here went through in Nanking" ( or Cambodia or Bosnia…)
Back on track, I only learned about this particular tragedy from a Reader’s Digest article a few years ago. (At least I think it was on this particular horror, smoothed over for the RD readers.) The rest I’ve learned, and there wasn’t much of it, was from the wife of a pilot who was in a POW camp in Japan somewhere and watched his buddies being tortured and murdered right before his eyes.
DrDoom, what about it? Tell us.I might be an ignorant one, I’ve never heard a word.
First, I’d like to clarify a couple of things. In Japan, Prime Minister Murayama personally apologized for wartime atrocities such as Nanking, Unit 731, the “comfort women” and the like, but the Japanese government has never issued a clear and direct apology. The comfort women problem perhaps best illustrates the theme. The government set up a private corporation to take donations from private corporations and individuals to “compensate” (read appease) the surviving comfort women. Some money was gathered, and I believe that it would have worked out to something like $30,000US per woman in return for her silence about the issue. The vast majority of comfort women victims indignantly refused the payments, insisting that the Japanese government directly acknowledge its responsibility. The Japanese government has yet to do this.
The second, and perhaps even more troubling aspect of this is that Japanese history has been sanitized. Children’s history textbooks contain large, detailed sections on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and next to nothing on the events in the war that led up to the dropping of the atomic bombs. Japan has cast itself as the victim, and has steadfastly refused to acknowledge its guilt for the atrocities it committed.
The reasons for this denial are very complex. A large part of it has to do with the Japanese cultural reaction to mistakes or unpleasant things is to ignore them.
Another factor has to be the fear of the ultra-right wing nuts, who have close ties to organized crime. Several years ago, the mayor of Nagasaki implied in a speech that the emperor bore some responsibility for the war. The right-wing responded to that by shooting and seriously wounding him on the street. These tactics are very similar to the Yakuza, who slashed open the throat of film director Itami Juzo after one of his movies portrayed them in a highly accurate and unfavorable light.
Another important factor must be the number of war criminals and ultra-nationalists who were left in power after the war because MacArthur needed them to smooth his transition. Some allege that MacArthur also received cash payments from these men in return for their amnesty. Sasakawa was one of the richest men in the world when he died, in spite of the fact that he was a neo-fascist and a class A war criminal.
The reason that few have heard of this atrocity is because China turned to communism, and Japan, America’s new bosom buddy and unsinkable aircraft carrier, wanted to sweep this all under the rug. This has been to the detriment of all nations involved, particularly Japan. Japan needs a full accounting of what it did during the war, and it needs to make as complete a reperation as possible. The criminal and ultra-nationalistic elements of society need to be pulled out by the roots, so that Japan can hold its head high again in the circle of nations. Until this happens, the future of Japan is tainted.
Shingen, tx for your very informative post. Its ending begot some thoughts in my little head and I’d like your opinion on them. Incidentally, postwar situation in this neck of the wood shows how complicated things can get: because of rising Chinese and North Korean threat, some unfinished business with Japan was pushed under the rug… Anyway.
Russia and Japan still did not sign a peace treaty. Japan is willing to help Russia economically, but for pure business reasons. Russia did not suffer much from Japan during the war, and, I guess, can not claim much. Now that Russia, if not exactly our ally, needs us badly to help her economically. Can we (and do we want to) use some leverage/inducement, so Russia would not sign a peace treaty, badly wanted by Japan, unless somethig is got from Japan, which would settle old business with us?
An example: no peace treaty until clear apology?
Pissing off one of our biggest trading partners doesn’t seem like such a hot idea to me. Especially on an issue that really isn’t all that important in the grand scheme of things. Better to just let Japan deal with it on their own terms. There’s no reason to force the issue down their throats. Especially considering the US sometimes wrestles with the debate of our own apologies/reparations to descendents of Africans and Indians.
Marc
Mark, I can understand that GM interests, for example, take prioritiy over stinking apologies. It’s always hard to weigh material issues vs. ethic ones. But how do you compare apologies/compensations to actual survivors to “apologies/reparations to descendants”? I even do not know how they are possible, physically?
Besides, two wrongs do not make one right.
Or one wrong does not justify another one, if you prefer.
It is interesting that we hear very little about the POW camps during the civil “war”, one of the most barbaric struggles in mankind, pitting one brother against the other. Maybe by calling it a “war” with the Blue vs Grey we have glorified it so that we could live with ourselves and still be able to be critical of other cultures. This link is just a starting point concerning the prison camps, including Andersonville:
http://www.guidon.com/anderson.html
I read about the “Rape of Nanking” thirty years ago in Daniel Bergamini’s interesting (and largely forgotten) book “Japan’s Imperial Conspiracy”. He went into it in some detail. I’d heard of it many times since, and was rather surprised to find that many people thought this was a “forgotten” aspect of the second world war. Upon reflection, though, it does seem to be stressed less than, for instance, the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, which Bergamini claimed took about the same number of lives.
One factor seems to be getting overlooked here. Generally speaking, Americans just don’t care very much about the past. Americans are present-and-future oriented, so the past just doesn’t hold much interest for them, particularly not when the events in question took place a half a century ago on the other side of the globe. A Yank typically forgets most of the history he learns in school, and what little he knows comes to him through popular culture–movies, TV shows, etc.–and we all know how accurate THAT is. Anything more than a few years old basically just passes out of the average American’s mind. Shucks, most Americans already think of the Gulf War as ancient history.
There are exceptions, of course, such as Civil War and World War Two buffs and so on, but speaking very generally, Americans couldn’t care less about history. The Holocaust is something of an exception, and the reasons for that exception have already been given here by others.
Frankly, it embarasses me sometimes when I think of how little the typical American knows about both geography and history.
“…such as Civil War…” Are you referring to the War Betwen the States?
Being Jewish, I’ve known about the Nazi holocaust since I was a kid. However, I only just heard about the Nanking massacre a few years ago when I encountered a site about it on the net. I was horrified by the atrocities committed by the Japanese.
However (and this is not said to minimize the suffering by the Chinese), there’s a big difference: Hitler was attempting to exterminate the Jews as a whole. He was trying to wipe out an entire group of people. I feel this is a major reason why the other holocausts are not as well known.
The thing that boggles my mind is how was Stalin able to stay in power after all he did?
…for mentioning the Bergamini book. I read this book many years ago, and it was a revelation to me. For everybody, this book pierces the veil that has covered Hirohito and his sordid past, ever since McArthur became the defacto ruler of post-war japan.
I would also recommend reading “The Other Nuremburg”, by Arnold Brackman. This is an excellent book, which recounts the findings of the international w2ar crimes tribunal, held in Japan. The crimes of the japanese are beyond description-they were fully as evil as the Nazis-and left a legacy of horrors-experimentation (germ warfare) on Chinese and Allied POWS, germ warfare atacks on Chinese villages.
The japanese have NEVER acknowledged their past-they have sanitized their history books, to the point that the average japanese cannot learn what went on 60 years ago.
I seem to recall that he did even a better job, as a whole, on the groups including gypsies, slavs, mentally retarded, physically deformed, etc., and definitely more so on his political adversaries (sp?)?