“The Rape of Nanking”. (sorry, author name not on the tip of my tongue)
very well written. very compelling. and very very upsetting.
By the sounds of it, the japanese were just as, if not more inhumane than the hitler’s nazis when it claim to mass civilian homicide. numbers dead were well comparable to those who lost their lives in europe.
has the japanese government formally apologized to china for that particular atrocity (among others)
i understand that war is war. and even many of the surviving japanese soldier show incredible remorse for what they have done.
my question is: how come this event was never brought to full light. i uderstand that we live in the western hemisphere but when several million die, regardless of locale, some body ought to be held accountable.
Actually, I have been quite aware of the event. I was just wondering why nobody ever give it much thought. (as compared to what happened the the Jewish people in europe). I guess I am guilty as well. I have very little knowledge about what is going on Africa right now as well.
But I guess the main question is? Has Japan ever admitted fault or offered apologies to China for WW2?
The Japanese approach to their handling of their history from a mere half-century ago has bedeviled more than just them. There’s been controversy after controversy, and what should arise makes Swiss transactions with regard to Jews during the war pale by comparison.
Horrible stuff happened, but the war happened as well. It is, I believe, folly to try and hold standards of behavior that prevailed in manny spheres before the war to the same standards that prevail today. The war was a big change for humanity; it was a milestone for humanity.
And Nanking was one of the leading events that can only successfully be understood by acknowledging that it came before the war. No, present day Japanese feel no more “guilt” than present day anybody-else. The Japanese were brutal in their part of the origin of the (probably) most significant human event so far (WW II), but point out to me a country or ethnic group that doesn’t have a booger in their history.
If you can find one, I’ll bet they’re not players.
I learned about it in high school history class but we didn’t really learn much. Most of our history here in the states comes from this side of the planet. We have strong cultural and historical bonds with Europe so it makes sense that most of our focus is placed there.
I think, in some form, but I do not know all the details.
If you wish to compare atrocities, I think Stalin takes the first place in killing the greatest number of innocent people. Hitler comes second, the Chinese communists third. Nanking massacte was kind of a reward for soldiers thing, " a gang-rape". The Japanese caused much death during WWII, but it was not on the scale of Hitler’s genocide or Stalins crimes, which were methodic, theoretically based, long-term events. As you understand, I am not saying that because of that the deaths of the Chinese in Nanking was “better”, I just try to give you the historical perspective. The 20th century was an awful time, compared to which the Middle Ages in Europe with all the Inquisition looks like a boot camp. Atrocities happen in our time, on a lesser scale, almost on all continents. Both Americas were relatively spared (yes, I know about Indians and others, so stay quiet, PCC).
Sorry. I meant to say that Japan did something in terms of aknowledging the event. Again, I do not know whether a formal apology was made, or reparations paid, etc.
In general, we know European history better, for many understandable reasons. I do not call it “bias”. I and most people in this country do not have any connection to Tasmania. Why should I study or care about her history?
Perhaps this will gradually change.
I’ll have to work on the citations, but the Japanese take their apologies very seriously. They did officially apologize for Nanking, I don’t know precicely when or how. Since then, they have more or less tried to forget about the whole thing–and they do a good job about that, as outraged American journalists keep reminding us.
I think their attitude is something like, “we have acknowledged our wrongdoing and wish to address it no further.” It involves loss of face, and loss of face in Japan is acknowledged solemnly, but only once. Then it is erased.
The Rape of Nanking is very much in the minds of Asians, and is the crux of much anger even today. The book you cite, “The Rape of Nanking” by Iris Chang, was about to be published in Japan when ultra-right wing fanatics threatened the publisher so severely, they halted publication of the book. The book has not yet been published in Japanese.
Ultrarightist “uyoku” have done much to suppress the knowledge of the Rape of Nanking in Japan, and they only refer to it as the “Nanking Incident.” They deny that the “incident” even took place. They have suppressed the teaching of the “incident” by suppressing it from Japanese history textbooks. The average Japanese high school student will only read one or two sentences about the Rape of Nanking in their history books. Here are quotations from these books: http://www.japanecho.co.jp/docs/html/250415.html
Of course, this doesn’t sit too well with the formerly Japanese-occupied countries like China and Korea. And the Japanese government has never formally apologized for the Rape of Nanking, despite repeated calls to do so.
Adding further to the confusion, there are no indisputably accurate records of how many people were killed in Nanking. Iris Chang accepts the highest figures, IIRC, something over a million deaths. The only independent records were kept by a Nazi ambassador to China who reported to Berlin, indicating something like 190,000 deaths.
“By the sounds of it, the japanese were just as, if not more inhumane than the hitler’s nazis when it claim to mass civilian homicide. numbers dead were well comparable to those who lost their lives in europe.”
David Duke would probably say that Jews are constantly reminding everyone about the Jewish holocaust and so it (and the Nazis) are much more present in Western consciousness.
I don’t know if I agree with that, but I can say that I’m Jewish, and in religious school we studied the holocaust every freakin’ week.
Reminds me of the old joke about the Jew from Brooklyn who always was reading white supremacist literature. When his friends asked him why, he said he was tired of reading about how Jews are opressed – much more fun to read about how Jews secretly control the world.
I thought that the attack on Nanking was one of the main reasons that the US put an embargo on oil to Japan which, in turn, led to them trying to secure supply for themsleves and their attack on Pearl Harbour.
The behaviour of the Japanese in Manchuria seems to me to have recieved less publicity than ought to have been the case.
Luc, I’m not sure I got the wind. Are you (or David Duke) saying that the Jewish Holocaust makes the Rape of Nanking look amateurish by comparison and that the remaining Jews remind the world about it more that the Chinese remind about Nanking?
TC networks like to rank disasters, I’m not trying to compete with them here. Half of Jews perished because of Hitler, less than one million Chinese did (which does not make the Rape of Nanking any “lesser” crime, of course). But we have to keep things in perspective. How many people here know of the Armenian Massacre of 1915? Is it because there are too few Armenians now to cry and to let the world know about it? Or because “time heals”?
There are times when I can’t stand TV chronicles of the WWII showing Hitler camps and I turn my TV off. It’s a survival gesture. I do not want to see more recent ones, but I do see them, in color now. Innocent people are killed all over the world, right now. And the more the Jews, the Chinese, the Armenians will remind the world about the atrocities their peoples have been through, the less likely that I will turn off my TV in the future.
Europeans for the most part know something about the Armenian holocaust but detailed information is not that widely circulated.
When questioned about the ‘final solution’ Hitler is supposed to have remarked,
“Who remembers the Armenians?”
One could put a case for saying that the Armeian murders made the Jewish holocaust that much easier to contemplate.
Even today Turkey denies the existance of such events but the evidence is pretty damning.
Anyone who writes into any newspaper or who publishes anything related to the Armenian killings soon finds themselves confronted by Turkish replies, and I mean anyone at all - try it out for yourself and see what I mean.
The Turks are trying to become part of the EU, they keep wondering why they are told that they need more time to consider their application, one day they will understand why.
sometimes it seems to me that the real shock value of the Jewish Holocaust comes from the idea that it was so planned, so cold and calculated, almost done without passion, so separate from the battleground.
because 10-15 million Slavic people were killed because of Nazi tactics but we never really hear that much about that crime. maybe because it all happened in the midst of a brutal war? but what is the true distinction between giving orders to kill (Holocaust) and not giving the orders to restrain murderous soldiers (Nanjing)?
conservative estimates in China point at 6 million civilian deaths (2.2 million military) and higher estimates go up to 30 million at the hands of the Japanese. Chinese civilians were used for live bayonet practice and story goes that you weren’t an official Japanese officer until you had beheaded a Chinese prisoner (less style points if you required more than one blow).
we have to remember that China didn’t really have the opportunity to recover from WWII and take stock of what just happened. they were plunged right away into civil war between the Nationalists and the Communists. meanwhile, the Jews were pushing for a homeland immediately after the war and had better opportunities to document their suffering.
the United States was working so hard to “rehabilitate” Japan that we didn’t really want to know about atrocities committed against our now-Communist enemies in China. which is why you’ve heard plenty about Mengele but almost nothing about Unit 731 and the Japanese using biological warfare (bubonic plague, even). we gave immunity to Japanese war criminals in exchange for their knowledge on biological warfare. if you’re interested: http://www.centurychina.com/wiihist/germwar/
i guess it boils down to this: do you think the Germans would have confronted their Nazi past if they hadn’t been forced to? how much pressure has been put upon the Japanese, especially with big brother America in her corner?
“Luc, I’m not sure I got the wind. Are you (or David Duke) saying that the Jewish Holocaust makes the Rape of Nanking look amateurish by comparison and that the remaining Jews remind the world about it more that the Chinese remind about Nanking?”
Well, it’s tough to compare holocausts. I’m not going to choose, but certainly both the Japanese and the Germans did some horrific things to civilians during WWII.
In any event, it’s hard to dispute that the Jewish holocaust gets a lot of attention, more so than others.
Is this because certain Jews and Jewish groups go to great lengths to remind the world? White supremacists seem to think so. Certainly in America there are Jewish groups and individuals that seem to get the message across pretty clearly.
“How many people here know of the Armenian Massacre of 1915? Is it because there are too few Armenians now to cry and to let the world know about it? Or because ‘time heals’?”
I know of it, but I bet far fewer Americans know of it than the Jewish one. It’s hard to say why. Perhaps part of it is time, part of it might be that the United States was more directly involved in one conflict than the other, and part might be that there are vocal groups such as the ADL.
Luc, be as it may, rather than trying to silence JDL or any other group trying to remind people of past horors, try to speak more about other Holocausts which you think have been not spoken of loudly enough. Some people definetely do not know about them. Ask any Hutu or Tutsi.
What’s the mystery here? It seems to me natural that Americans would know a lot more about the Nazi holocaust than any other.
There are hundreds of thousands of Americans who lost close relatives in the Nazi holocaust. How many Americans lost (civilian) relatives to the Japanese, to the Turks, to the Hutus, to the Tutsis? Tens of thousands at the most.
A lot of people involved in the Nazi holocaust (as victims, perpetrators, and spectators) spoke English and wrote about it in English. Not so many people involved in the other named holocausts could write in English. (Need I mention that relatively few Americans can read Japanese, Chinese, Turkish, Armenian, Kinyarwanda, Kirundi or even French?)
There’s a (Nazi) Holocaust museum on the Mall.
What surprises me is that so few American seem to be aware of the brutality of the Japanese towards POWs in WWII. Now and then people mention the Death March but you don’t hear much about it. Things seem to be different in Europe where you find people VERY bitter about the way European POWs were treated by the Japanese (e.g., forcing Dutch women into prostitution, killing British POWs, etc.).
And while everyone talks about genocide as practiced by “them”, you might consider what a Native American’s take would be on American history. As beatle wrote, we’ve all got our boogers.
That’s right, the leading cause of death (killings) of Chinese people are other Chinese people.
Throughout Chinese history, Chinese have murdered each other by the tens of millions. It’s a cycle in their history: growth - prosperity - decline - devastation - growth - pros…