Where on earth did you get that idea? The USA and GB still had arguments about boundaries until 1859 (and perhaps later).
And the USA could not have “recognized your boundaries” in 1821 as** Mexico **had no idea what it’s boundaries where.
“Therefore, the Viceroyalty’s former territories included what is now the present day countries of Mexico, Guatemala, El Salvador, Honduras, Nicaragua, Belize, Costa Rica; the United States regions of California, Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, Nevada, Utah, Colorado, Wyoming, Florida; the Caribbean nations of Cuba, Puerto Rico, the Dominican Republic, the island of Hispaniola, Jamaica, Antigua and Barbuda; the Asia-Pacific nations of the Philippine Islands, Guam, Mariana Islands, Palau and Caroline Islands.”
Clearly Mexico never claimed all of that, and in fact the various Central American portions started off as part of Mexico, but proclaimed their independence over several years. Was that “Imperialism”?
Here’s a map from 1829:
In fact, the boundaries of Mexico (not to mention several other N. American nations) were tenuous and not fixed.
Your argument and mapa are pure rubbish. The boundaries were known and clearly defined.
Here is a historical document that explains the boundaries over the ceded territory in the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo. If the boundaries were under dispute why were they so quickly accepted by the USA under the treaty as accurate? Afterall, how could we cede territory that didn’t even belong to us?
The other part of your post is equally uninformed. Spanish had seperate colonies just like England. You seem to think that the whole of America should have become independent along with Mèxico. That is like saying all British colonies should have become independent at the same time as the USA.
Well, the Map is a German map from 1829. Odd how I managed to go back in a time machine and plant a bogus map in order to win a point in a debate.:rolleyes:
Here’s a cite from wiki "After independence, several Spanish possessions in Central America which also proclaimed their independence were incorporated into Mexico from 1822 to 1823, with the exception of Chiapas and several other Central American states.The northern provinces grew increasingly isolated, economicaly and politically, due to prolonged Comanche raids and attacks. New Mexico in particular had been gravitating more toward Comancheria. In the 1820s, when the United States began to exert influence over the region, New Mexico had already begun to question its loyalty to Mexico City."
You are forgetting the First Mexican Empire under Agustín de Iturbide (wiki) :The new emperor had congress decree the heredity of the crown with the title of “Prince of the Union”. As emperor, Iturbide had sovereignty over lands from Colombia to Oregon, including the current countries of Central America and the U.S. states of California, Texas, Arizona, Utah, Nevada, Colorado and New Mexico." Note that “Iturbide had sovereignty over lands** from Colombia t**o Oregon, **including the current countries of Central America”
**
(wiki) *In addition to opposition to Emperor Agustín I within what is now Mexico, the area now known as Central America declared its opposition to Mexico City’s rule. In 1823, authorities in what are now El Salvador, Nicaragua, Costa Rica and down to Panama convened a Congress to declare themselves independent from Mexico and Spain as the “United Provinces of Central America.”[19]
*
More from wiki "Santa Anna was Mexico’s leader during the conflict with Texas, which declared itself independent from Mexico in 1836 and ensured that independence by defeating the Mexican army and Santa Anna. Santa Anna was in and out of power again during the U.S.-Mexican War (1846-48). After accepting Texas’s application for statehood in 1846, the US government sent troops to Texas in order to secure the territory, subsequently ignoring Mexico’s demands for US withdrawal. Mexico saw this as a US intervention in their internal affairs by supporting a rebel province.
Disagreements about boundaries made the conflict inevitable."
Note that last "Disagreements about boundaries made the conflict inevitable."
Rebellions also occurred during the periodn between Mexican Independence and the Mexican American war- the best known one being that of Texas, although Coahuila joined with Nuevo Leon & Tamaulipas to form the short-lived Republic of the Rio Grande.
Anyway the *Treaty of Córdoba *did not specify exactly what part of *the Viceroyalty of New Spain * was ceded to Mexico when Mexico was granted independence.
I have no idea of where you’re getting your last conclusion from.
I think you need to study the History of Mexico better. There’s a lot of myth taught in schools.
A German map??? What a joke. Did Germany have a presence in America in 1829? Didn’t think so but you might want to check your impeccable source, Wikipedia.
If you would like to truly learn something not taught in your American History classes, you might want to find a copy of the Treaty Of Guadalupe and check out Article V. You will then see that there were indeed recognizable boundaries for the land ceded.
But I don’t really expect a nationalistic demagogue such as yourself to have any interest in anything that may tarnish your image of the USA.
Mate, you lost this arguement. You lost it bad. You need to either find a better argument, or a heck of a lot more proof, because the “proof” you have now, ain’t.
Just FYI, the Germans were known as the worlds best Mapkeepers for several centuries. Most decent older maps were made by German mapmakers, even if Germany had no political interest in the area.
Political rhetoric of this kind is not useful in GQ. As far as I can see, DrDeth’s posts have been for the most part factual, and he has not been engaging in demagoguery.
Here’s a copy of the Treaty of Guadalupe Hildalgo. Article V only delineates the new boundary between the United States and Mexico; it says nothing about the extent of the former northern boundary of Mexico, nor does it describe the ceded territories explicitly. You’ll have to find some other document on which to base your assertions about the boundaries.
The new borders were drawn up using a map of the previous borders. The map question is mentioned in the treaty and had been published in New York in 1847. It was the map the US government insisted be used.
Many years prior to this in 1819 the United States and Spain had an agreement on the borders between Nueva España and the USA. This border established in that agreement was ratified by treaty between Mèxico and the USA in 1932. Those are facts. There was no doubt where the border between the 2 countries was. Doubts arose as to the NEW border due to errors in the map the US insisted on using for the treaty of Guadalupe. Those errors are what led to the Gadsen Purchase several years later.
DrDeth made a statement in an earlier post that Mèxico had no idea where the bounderies were located. I don’t consider that to be factual. I consider it to be an arrogant comment based solely on assumptions.
The actual treaty that defined the boundary between the US and Spanish territories was the Adams-Onis Treaty of 1819, ratified by Spain in 1820 and the US in 1821. This coincided more or less with Mexican independence from Spain. Mexico ratified the treaty in 1831. However, there was a dispute about the eastern boundary in the region of the Sabine and Neches Rivers. When Texas gained independence from Mexico in 1836, this boundary issue was resolved between the US and the Republic of Texas. This boundary dispute had little to do with the Mexican War. That war was triggered by the dispute about whether the southern boundary of Texas was the Nueces or the Rio Grande after the annexation of Texas by the US in 1846.
That was a fabricated issue used to justify the war on the part of the Americans. A war which 2 future US presidents agreed was unjustified aggression.
While the dispute may have been used by the US as a pretext for war, I would not exactly call it “fabricated.” It did have a basis in the Treaties of Velasco at the end of the Texas War of Independence (acknowledging the questionable nature of the treaties themselves, and the fact that they were not ratified by the Mexican government).
The Mexican American war was still on in 1847, the treaty was not signed until 1848. Thus, I would not be surprised that the US came out with a map during the war which showed the boundaries it wanted.
Well, I’d like a cite as to the treaty between Spain and the USA which would lead to *no questions at all *about where the borders where. It’s highly doubtful, as questionable borders due to vague wording were common in that period- see “Fifty-four Forty or Fight!” and the so-called “Pig War”.
Are you talking about the Adams-Onís Treaty of 1819? Yes, that did delineate the borders, but there were still disputes and questions, especially along what would later become the Texas border.
In any case, whatever the borders of *Virreinato de Nueva España *were is not entirely germane. Mexico did not have the same boundaries as the Viceroyalty. (wiki) “*Therefore, the Viceroyalty’s former territories included what is now the present day countries of Mexico, Guatemala, El Salvador, Honduras, Nicaragua, Belize, Costa Rica; the United States regions of California, Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, Nevada, Utah, Colorado, Wyoming, Florida; the Caribbean nations of Cuba, Puerto Rico, the Dominican Republic, the island of Hispaniola, Jamaica, Antigua and Barbuda; the Asia-Pacific nations of the Philippine Islands, Guam, Mariana Islands, Palau and Caroline Islands.”
*
Other than the short-lived First Mexican Empire, few accepted that Guatemala, El Salvador, Honduras, Nicaragua, Belize, & Costa Rica were part of “Mexico”, and the overseas areas of Nuevo Espana were never considered part of Mexico. So, although Virreinato de Nueva España did include Mexico, Mexico did not include all of Virreinato de Nueva España.
And when we’re talking about the Northern Border of Mexico, remember that Coahuila, Nuevo Leon, Tamaulipas and Tejas had been in revolt, with Tejas (aka Texas) successfully revolting, taking parts of some other states with it. This (see above) was the main cause of the most significant border dispute:
wiki “*However, by the mid-1830s, a controversy developed regarding the border with Texas, during which the United States demonstrated that the Sabine and Neches rivers had been switched on maps, moving the frontier in favor of Mexico. As a consequence, the eastern boundary of Texas was not firmly established until the independence of the Republic of Texas in 1836, and not agreed upon until the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo in 1848 which concluded the Mexican-American War. *”
I’m afraid you are the one making the assumptions, DrDeth. First you declare unambiguously that Mèxico had NO idea where the boundaries might be. Now you mention a treaty that was used to define these very boundaries, a treaty which I will assume you had no idea whatsoever existed several posts ago.
Now you try to claim that the map in question could very well have been fabricated solely to forward the expansionist desires of the US. One thing I’d like for you to clarify. If the territory that the US acquired through a possibly phoney map wasn’t part of Mèxico, then who did it belong to and why didn’t the rightful owners resist it being annexed by the USA?
Well, that was certainly a good cite. I’m glad that you chose to show exactly the point in contention, that the boundaries were not clearly delimited, at least not between the parties in the controversy.
Right, but he said that the grounds were unjustified because there wasn’t sufficient proof presented that Texas had always claimed lands all the way to the Rio Grande. Instead, there was a nebulous question of where the boundaries were, at the Nueces? At the Rio Grande? Somewhere in between?
This directly contradicts your point that boundaries were fixed and easily identifiable by all.
