Why don’t you lift weights?

Strength training is better for health span than hypertrophy. Unless talking about powerlifting competitors or Olympic lifters specifically, most lifters use a considerable variety of exercises. Things improving balance, endurance, and mobility are also helpful and compatible with lifting.

Studies show a link between grip strength and longevity, which is seen as a proxy for strength.

Big people tend to be strong, so these are two sides of a similar coin. However, overall size is inversely related to longevity. This may be thrown off by unhealthy methods used by some to get big. It may be related to similarities between growth and cancer. It might be because size may affect heart strain or blood pressure and involve higher caloric intake. (Lower but adequate calories often makes mice live longer). But you can become very strong while staying the same weight (though as a non-endomorph initial lifter one will gain substantial weight before this occurs). From a longevity standpoint this is better - using the fat one has to build muscle, in a sense.

More complicated considerations invoke AMPK and mTOR systems (discussed reasonably clearly for layfolk in Fung’s Longevity Solution). Since many other factors affect this, such as fasting or phytonutrients or maybe things like metformin, one can probably compensate for some (hopefully all) of the negative aspects of hypertrophy. I do this with a shotgun approach, and wish the evidence was better for stuff I personally do but would not strongly advise to my patients. But when I was at my physical strongest, my weight had been the same for ten years. Good evidence for healthspan, in humans and not mice, means studies that take decades and are difficult and expensive to do even passably well.

I’m talking more about training focus for the more typical person incorporating weightlifting as part of their exercise plan than end result per se? Not really thinking about competitive body builders vs powerlifters.

A person, say in their 40s. who is asked what their goal is, and who isn’t able to answer either being stronger or having more muscle mass. They have heard about sarcopenia and are now convinced that the way to have muscle mass and strength, to stay healthy and functional long term, is to include weight lifting in their exercise plan. Maybe a reader of this thread!

Assume they have been taught good form. Assume the core is compound lifts with a balance of push pull upper lower so on. Healthwise are they better served with a core of fewer reps fewer sets heavier weights (the strength focus tactic), or more volume in both reps and sets and relatively less heavy weights (the hypertrophy focus tactic)?

The first thing they must do is show up at the gym consistently and lift. The second thing is to avoid injury. They g they are new to lifting and do anything consistently and with effort, they will likely become both bigger and stronger.

At this stage, the difference between strength and hypertrophy is subtle because both will apply. I don’t think it much matters, and their goal may be relevant. Lower weights will be slightly less effective at becoming stronger because of done with high reps few reps will be “maximum effort” ones before the muscle becomes tired. But the risk of injury is less. More experienced lifters should vary the rep range and the intensity accordingly. New lifters will grow no matter what mistakes they make, with minimal guidance, if they get showing up and working hard right.

But if asking me to choose, strength with less weight change, assuming there is far to lose.

Don’t quite know how “if they” got transcribed as garbage, but so it goes. Ditto “strength edges out hypertrophy” if there is “fat to lose” so muscle replaced it and the weight stays stable.

To the first having a strength goal likely helps. Newbie gains from rapid neuromuscular adaptations are an immediate positive feedback, and that initial phase of frequent positive reinforcement can last for multiple months. As long as they manage the second.

Makes sense. And I suspect “this stage” is where many of us who are lifting as part of overall fitness, with the long term goal of improved healthspan and function, with being able to carry heavy things and our vanity issues more short term items, stay.

They are better served improving on their lifts (progressive overload)!

And that, as you know, would call for a mix of styles (strength and hypertrophy)

It’s kind of like saying, health wise, should I eat fruit or vegetables? I’m better with both!

I personally agree with your conclusion. But “improving on your lifts” means different things to different people, and the part I agree most with is the mixing it up is best.

The thought comes more from a broader view even, the attention to having defined numerical goals and metrics of progress to them or not.

On the cardio side the camps are the group who measure everything, precise heart rate goals, speed, so on, to the “just run” group, sometimes run hard and sometimes easy maybe, use how hard you breathe as the only metric you need, and who roll eyes at what they see as obsessive measurements and tracking for the bulk of us who are not “serious”
athletes. Keep it simple.

The translation to the weightlifting side is “just lift” - sometimes a heavier weight sometimes a lighter one, good form always, compound lifts focused, and let having one to a couple of reps in reserve (close to failure) be your guide.

I admit I have a preference for the not worrying about numbers much side. I have no goal to be huge and have no idea what my 1 rep max on any lift might be. My lifting approach is akin to running fartleks. My concession to numbers is a Garmin watch for heart rate zones when training for a specific goal like a marathon, and then the only real benefits were to keep my easy runs as easy they were supposed to be, and for distance measurement which matters when marathon training. But beyond that the numbers I get aren’t useful to me.

I get that many enjoy the detailed analysis. I just wonder if that ends up as overthinking it for the bulk of us.

(The thought, ill formed, is from the thread with the poster lifting with prostrate cancer whose doctor’s advice was “just lift to failure” as a simple guide, which is not far off from where I am. Of course being me, overthinking it is my reaction!)

I have been going at it for almost 4 months now. The first 2 months were just waking up muscles That had not been used for nearly a decade. I don’t use anything to measure what i am doing and could care less. The way I see progress is I keep having to adjust the vent on my bag to a tighter vent. It seems my tendency is to put out a constant effort guessing about 50 to 60% and keep up a certain pace. If my pace is getting too fast I close the vent a little so it requires more effort. A specific rhythm is what my body seems to be looking for unconsciously and this forces me to increase the pressure and effort as I tire and the pace slows down. Every so many pushes I give it about 3 -100% pushes and then go back to my pace. When I can no longer keep up a reasonable pace I call it failure.

I did reference “progressive overload”, which marks improved lifts by being able to do the same weight for more reps, or the same reps with more weight. That’s a pretty easy standard to use.

I think you can do both within the workout.

For example, I try to pick a compound lift when I start my workout (I.e. a basic bar or dumbbell lift that uses multiple muscles, and targets a major muscle group).

For back, it might be bent over rows or deadlifts.

For chest, incline bench press.

Legs? Squats.

On that lift, I work up to sets where I am trying to improve my strength: reps would top out at 4-5 and I consider it improvement if I can add a few pounds.

But after that movement, I’ll do one (sometimes 2) exercises that are more focused on a target muscles, and often machine supported. Examples would be machine flys for chest, or pullovers or pulldowns for back.

On those exercises, my goal is to do higher reps (although I really don’t go over about 10), get deep into the muscle fatigue, and try to maximize the muscle pump. On those lifts, I don’t really pay attention to how much weight I am using; it’s about going to momentary muscle failure.

Now, to be clear, the weight I use on strength training doesn’t really go up that much, since I may have topped out on my natural strength level. And I probably am doing about the same number of reps, with the same weight, when I switch to a secondary exercise. But the mentality is different.

I wish I could draw my mental image of your machine.

Something maybe like this

More like this?

And personally I think a fine one but it is also a wide one, wide enough to contain a pure hypertrophy focus to a pure powerlifting strength one! :grinning_face:

The camp of just lift to near failure (zero to a couple reps in reserve) with a variety of loads (emphasis on multijoint compound lifts etc) will likely be experiencing progressive overload. Even if they aren’t measuring or documenting it.

But my best for healthspan is likely answered: likely doing a mix but not accomplishing a mix would be pretty hard for the beginner to intermediate lifter anyway.

It’s just in contrast to the plans out there based on optimizing one or the other.

For most of us, that’s the wrong question. They say that the best camera is the one you have with you. The best weight training is the routine you will do. And as most of us find lifting weights to be unpleasant and boring, the better exercise is going to depend on psychological factors that will vary from person to person.

That being said, the routine that’s less likely to injure you is by far the one you are more likely to stick with. Because I’ve seen an awful lot of people suffer exercise-related injuries, and then they don’t do much exercise for months. So i think “safer” is the best bet for health span.

Well that, and the avoiding injury bit, were the key portions of @Dr_Paprika’s response. And seeing measurable progress may be a reinforcer that helps with that.

The thing is almost anyone who puts in effort and shows up to lift weights regularly for a year will show substantial improvements. Even if they make many “mistakes”, as I did (at a time when little good info was available). Providing they are not just taking selfies or talking to buddies, and have not lifted regularly before.

So you sent me a video of your machine! Very cool.

I’d describe it as you sitting on a back supported bench, with a bar in front of you, attached to an air filled bag as resistance. A basic movement is to pull the bar towards you (a row) and then push it away from you (a press), but it looks like you can also curl the bar.

The only criticism I’d give it is that it’s pretty limited in the extent that you can change the resistance. I get that you can make it harder to expel the air from the bag, but that is going to be a limited factor at some point (whereas you can, in theory, increase the amount of barbell or dumbbell weight you use indefinitely).

Another issue is that for every row you must counter with a press: this means that you can’t just isolate one bodypart. Pulling rows primarily work the back, whereas presses primarily work the chest and shoulders.

Now, that might seem ideal (a more efficient workout), but your back and chest may be at different strengths, so what is a tough resistance for one may not be enough for the other. At some point your progress is going to stagnate,

Nevertheless, I wholeheartedly applaud your ingenuity, and if it’s enjoyable enough that you do it as part of a routine then it’s going to offer benefits!

A lot of gym bros get into shoulder trouble because they do a lot of bench presses and never row, leading to imbalance.

I prefer to do my rowing and presses on different days. But there are advantages to a more balanced approach. One presumes such a machine is marketed at busy people who want something at home, less heavy lifters who enjoy going to the gym.

You can identify those guys by the fact that their shoulders rotate inward. It’s a tell tale sign.

Same. It’s a staple of the “push/pull/legs” split.

Agreed. Occasionally I’ll split up my weekends into an upper body and lower body day. On upper body day, I’ll do a bench press followed by a row exercise.

Well, this is @HoneyBadgerDC ‘s own invention, so it isn’t (yet) being marketed to anyone.

But my point was just that a person might have a different strength level on their pulling ability versus their pushing ability. This machine - where you have the same resistance both pulling and pushing- doesn’t account for that difference.

That’s not to say that it isn’t providing a beneficial workout. I was just noticing one possible limitation.

I have not seen the machine. If it does not match Escher’s perpetual canal, I’m stumped.

(I recently switched to upper/ lower/ push/ pull/ legs to get more rest and to include more exercises. Working well so far; never done that before. I like push/ pull/ legs. But I’m trying to include sled work, more cardio, flexibility and several harder-to-classify exercises like “hip thrust machine”… I end up doing Push1, Push2, etc. and it gets too complicated. ULPPL still lets me do a major lift each workout including overhead press and pull-ups with more recovery time for deadlifts.)

Some say that, in general, one can row (with supported chest) 70% of what can bench. So at least they are fairly similar for neophytes.

This has been handled, The difference in strength makes no difference.

I completely understand why you are more concerned about rest. What motivates your deciding at this point to increase your variety?

And for illustration of a different sort of option - I do cardio four days a week (be it running, cycling, erg, elliptical, and lately rucking stairs). One to two days, usually two, I strength train. On those days it is some mix of upper/lower, alternating push/pull, rotational … and balance ball (stir the pot, deadbug, ball pass, hip thrusts …), and balance disc stuff. Sometimes starting off on the rings in the yard with pull ups and dips (had a goal to master muscle ups but never made it), els, rotational knee raises, and the closest I can get to the levers (also a never reached goal). I haven’t had a barbell or a bench since two moves ago (we tried condo living but it didn’t take) and weights are all dumbbells using the balance ball as a bench for bench presses, and a steel mace. Emphasis is on multijoint compound movements but the day’s mix is just what I feel like.