Why don’t you lift weights?

In My Humble Opinion
761

To be very clear: I am not proposing instability training instead of training on stable surfaces, or as necessary or superior. And research here is sparse. The cited article is somebody spouting off their evidence free WAGs as fact and I have mine!

I think of instability training as supplemental for smaller muscles that are not the showy ones. Comparing squatting, Romanian deadlift, Good Mornings, or alternating single arm curl to overhead press, etc., on a balance disc to doing the same on stable ground is silly. While they are all compound movements they are accomplishing very different things and emphasize different sets of muscles, along with different sorts of neural adaptations. These are the non showy core muscles and adaptations that protect our backs and prevent falls.

My WAG based on basic principles of training specificity is that you get better at proprioceptive awareness by specific stress and recovery of that system, and likewise of the various long core and oblique muscles that stabilize movement on unstable surfaces.

First thing I find though doing my quick search for instability balance work and aging surprised me though! Improved executive function compared to stable surface work …

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-59105-0

Huh.

And yes balance exercise helps balance in older adults (for example).

In terms of the utility of “functional” whole body movements that he disses as fatiguing … kettlebell swings, Turkish get ups, and heavy carries (farmer carries) - that large volume of muscle fatigue is a big part of its point for hypertrophy! Same as why squats and deadlifts help arm gains. The hormonal response is generalized.

Of course I personally wouldn’t care much if there actually was solid evidence that sticking to his more limited lift selection gave better gains and there were no other advantages to doing these exercises too. I will still do what I have fun doing!

762

When I linked to that article (out of amusement at it) I had no idea how much that “expert” had been on a rampage against instability work nor how trendy it had gotten in some circles! I’ve been reading since and sheesh!! People get worked up. There is even debate over ring dips being less good that fixed bar dips because it gets limited in max force production on target show muscles from instability added. Who knew people debated this shit? It shouldn’t surprise. But dang gymnasts are ripped.

FWIW if someone actually really really cares most about getting the biggest show muscles they possibly can get, or the top number they can achieve on one of the few lifts that are the competition lifts, then there really likely is a very limited utility for doing lighter weight balance (“instability”) work: focus on max force production for the target show muscles or target lift movements. Although I suspect complementary light weight instability training would help reduce injuries risk over time by strengthening the core stabilizers.

But I also suspect (and find studies that support this) that the actual outcomes difference in mass or strength will be minimal.

For the likes of those of us (like me) interested in long term function and health, preventing sarcopenia and injury, the show muscles are not our hypertrophy issue; preserving/increasing even, all our muscle mass including, or maybe even especially, the core stabilizers is.

The big debates over “best” are entertaining to me because they matter so little? Doing any strength training at all of any sort in any modest amount is the big deal. If someone is going to stick with it one way over the other that is by far best for them!

763

No. In fact, I’d say the opposite is true.

in bodybuilding, you are trying to totally fatigue a muscle by isolating it with time under tension. Although bodybuilders will often group complementary muscles, they use a split routine so they are only targeting one muscle group at a time.

Since the intensity of that effort determines whether the muscle has to adapt and grow, a high intensity workout is shorter in duration. Anybody spending hours in the gym isn’t really working that hard.

I see things like this frequently. There are no such thing as smaller muscles that are “not the showy ones”. All skeletal muscle is shown off when a person is well developed, and there aren’t some secret muscles that exist, and can be trained, but which aren’t seen,

When people talk about needing to use muscle to stabilize a weight, they are referring to using more of the targeted muscle group: a bench press using a free weight, as opposed to a machine, recruits more muscle fiber in the pecs, shoulders, and triceps. It doesn’t recruit some hidden muscle that is otherwise dormant.

Free weight exercises do target all of our muscle mass, including whatever core stabilizers you are referencing.

764

You are simply wrong.

No one sees anyone’s psoas for example under any circumstances other than dissection. No one is bulking up their erector spinae muscles to show levels even at competition level body builder levels. Let alone for we with more typical healthy body fat levels. There are many supporting muscles that are important that have little vanity impact.

Also wrong about the use of muscles other than those big ones. “Engage your core” is a cliche for good reasons. Dips on rings use a wider variety of muscle groups more than on fixed bars. That is both their advantage and disadvantage depending on the perspective. Similar with free weights vs machine.

The are many ways to vary progression. Number of reps. Number of sets. Amount of weight. Variety of exercise selection. And introduction (carefully) of instability. None is a magic secret sauce and each adds something. For certain purposes and goals some add more than others. Someone interested in long term function very much benefits from the instability progression dimension being part of the mix in my (not so) humble opinion.

765

Returning to this. Obviously “free weight” is a big bucket but yes the core stabilizing muscles are, to some degree, activated in the big lifts; they are not in anyway targeted.

These core stabilizing ones are those long narrow and many very short ones, deeper than the bigger ones on top that show, that are targeted. Deepest are the multifudious, the rotatores, the interpinalis, and intertransversii groups. The rotatores are particularly interesting. The others meaningfully contribute to motion as well as stability, yes spinal extension, but also lateral flexion, and rotation. The rotatores group are each so small that they are felt to not do much to move anything. Even, despite the name, rotation. They brace against undesired movement (stiffen, stabilize) much more and are felt to be key in proprioceptive feedback.

And of course the pelvic floor muscles are part of core stabilization as well.

Not showy. Not vanity muscles. Not big. Ever. They are mainly slow twitch. Yes used and needed during a deadlift or a squat but targeted by instability work.

766

My trainer is adding more instability to my exercises. And i also try to exercise my pelvic floor. My goal is that no one other than me ever notices anything about my pelvic floor muscles. :laughing:

767

Sorry, it.took me time to read the hypertrophy post.. It’s not a great article.

No one does balance work to get swole. It aids stabilizers. Doing balance work with heavy weights is better done using one arm or leg variations or bodyweight variations (e.g. archer pull-ups or pushups as a step towards one armed ones)

The article is wrong. Loaded carries and kettlebell swings are great for hypertrophy - with the right weight and volume. Do Dan John’s 500 kettlebell daily swings and get big quickly. Power cleans and Olympic lifts are good for power, not hypertrophy. But what is best for hypertrophy is the stuff you neglect: usually overhead work for many lifters.

And again, for casual lifters the difference between strength and hypertrophy is unimportant and overhyped.

768

So? Don’t leave us hanging! What’s the right weight and volume (distance) for loaded carries?

Do you prioritize a certain distance and alter the weight to what you can carry that far? Or pick a weight (I read aiming for half body weight per hand) and go as far as you can? Or?

769

I’ll give you my answer below. Before I do, a detailed discussion on hypertrophy is here. This is geared towards more serious lifters.

770

A loaded carry means walking a certain distance while holding a weight. Weightlifting is an art as well as a science, so precise figures are not really more accurate.

There are different types of loaded carries, including:

  • Suitcase carry - walking with one heavy dumbbell held to the side, so you need to use the core to stabilize
  • Waiter carry - elevating one dumbbell
  • Tiptoe carry - working calves, usually while holding two dumbbells
  • Farmers walk - generally using a trap bar or handles with a heavy symmetric weight
  • Overhead carry - walking and holding a loaded bar, dumbbell or trap bar overhead
  • Weighted vests while hiking or treadmill, and rucking with heavy backpacks might count too but I don’t often do this.

I tend to do trap bar farmers walks and overhead. Doing more types is probably better. Jumping and tiptoe walks work my calves better than machines - which should be used very slowly since the calves are very elastic - but I only do them occasionally.

For hypertrophy, I like a mixture of heavy and volume with moderate to high effort. For things like deadlifting, I might do progressively heavier singles (resting 1-3 minutes between) to reach a daily maximum [the heavy part], then go to 60-80% of that value and do another 10-60 single reps [the volume part]. That takes significant effort too, so hits most of the hypertrophy drivers while still starting with a strength focus. You don’t want to do more sets than needed to exhaust the muscle though.

I can’t say what “the right value” is, just what works for me. Loaded carries are tiring, and I tend to use them as a challenge at the end of workouts once or twice a week.

For trap bar farmers walks, I load a trap bar (you are in the middle of a hexagon shape) and do 3-4 short walks (depends on free gym space, say 20’-80’) with progressively heavier weights, to a daily maximum, then go to 60% of that and do 1-2 more walks for as far as I can go at that time. My maximum might be from 300-455 pounds, depends how tired I am, doing your body weight is excellent; even doing one set is helpful.

For overhead walks, I hold a barbell above my head, generally 85-125 pounds (my gyms don’t have pre weighted barbells heavier than this), but using 1/4-1/3 your bodyweight is excellent. I do 2-4 walks of 20’-80’ feet, depending on gym and level of fatigue. Since most people do little overhead work, they miss out on having bigger delts and traps. I did for many years - I thought I had grown as much as I could, until I did it. If you are also neglecting certain movements, you might have more room to further grow too.

771

A professional lifter would likely use the load, effort and volume methods for different training blocks. I often prefer to try to combine different methods into the same workout.

A detailed look on growth stimulus suggests another way to do this using a layered approach, say with dips. The explanation involving mTOR and lactate might not interest most people.

772

No list will be comprehensive. Add in asymmetric farmer carries. And is there a name for doing it up and down steps as part of the distance? (We basement people work with what we got. No trap bar and dumbbells only paired to just below half body weight. So “heavy” is asymmetric one side 5 pounds below half body weight, and the other side 15 pounds over. And up down the basement stairs some as able as part of the distance. “Lighter” is both sides the 5 pounds below.)

I’m understanding your “what works” is what you can carry at least 20 and not more than 40 feet. Seem like a fair description?

Do you find the overhead one hard on the shoulder joint? Or risking being done with back hyper extension?

I know the question was regarding claims about hypertrophy but for the casual and … less young … lifter … carries overall stimulus to prevent osteoporosis and to increase grip strength are huge for healthy aging, at whatever weight is doable.

773

The heavier the weight, the less distance. You can also only walk so far in crowded gyms. I often walk 10-20 feet then back, possibly again. I could not do much more distance at my working weights, and would not want to spend more time doing loaded carries at the end of a workout than I already do.

I do what I am able to do. You could hike for miles with a weighted vest or backpack. It all helps. The goal is to feel challenged but handle it. Another goal is to manage fatigue, so only once or twice a week at most.

Tough goals to work towards in farmers walking with double bodyweight, and overhead with half bodyweight. Overhead lifting may require stretching the shoulder first, and presumes good shoulder range of motion (can keep the body flat while extending overhead in a single plane). You do need to be able to hold the spine in a safe and rigid way. Always start with minimal weights and increase these over time.

774

Distance = # reps. Question is what distance is high vs low reps.

Yes. But rucking miles is more endurance. Obviously from our discussions here I completely concur very important, but not super effective for building strength and less for mass.

Not gonna happen. :grinning_face:

775

Using stairs would mean lower weights, of course. It is not possible to maximize effort, load and volume together for any length of time. And heavier weights mean more recovery time is needed.- You are limited by time and energy and can only do so many variations - I prefer the symmetric ones.

776

For most people not powerlifting, the best solution is to use a variety of weights and distances. Also hand positions, grips, angles, bars, etc. Different rep ranges. More variations. Of course in practice you can only do a few but it is easy to make small changes, even between sets.

777

FWIW not in my case, I don’t think. Fewer steps maybe? But my fail point is more maintaining the grip on the bigger dumbbell for the duration and going up down stairs doesn’t change that.

I didn’t want to see this ignored. That is an excellent plan! Alternating step ups too. And maybe eventually holding some weight in one or the other hand (leaving one free to grab the railing for stability as you fatigue)?

Your consistent progress is very impressive!

778

There is a partial fix for exercises where the grip gives out before the bigger muscles - wrist straps. I do not personally use them on farmers walks, and I don’t know if using them on stairs is wise. I try not to use them except in heavy lifts like dumbbells after I have already failed but when there is more in the tank - some people like them on rows, pull-ups and such. “Figure 8” wrist straps are cheap, strong and easy to use. You may or may not want to bother.

779

I appreciate the thought. But nah. I can (and occasionally do) add on a weighted backpack, but if grip is the weak point and hitting closest to failure most often, then grip will be getting the biggest impact. I’m okay with that!

780

I have trouble with my grip when carving with a hand ax. It always gives out first. The wrist straps might help.