I love that quote from JPJones to Jimmy. Thank you for sharing - do you have a link to the podcast? You are referring to Pat Monahan - of the band Train? - he has a podcast? Hmm - Train is easy-listening, but their songs are good and Monahan is one of the best vocal talents out there right now - can sing anything.
Back to the quote: JPJ is deeply technically trained, whereas Jimmy was self-taught but earned his stripes doing similar session work as JPJ, but without the same grounding in Music Theory. Jimmy is more like Glen Campbell, who was a top session ace but couldn’t read.
Anyway, when I play with Theory guys and am just feeling my way through a piece, I will make statements like Jimmy did, and then watch as they roll their eyes and patiently play back to me what I asked using actual musical terms. “So you just bop in early there?” “Yes, we push the beat coming into that measure.”
Thanks again, Fool in the Rain, for an informative and insightful post.
And yes, in the two instances you asked about I meant Plant instead of Page.
It’s interesting that Jones would condescend to Page like that. He always seems to defer to the other two in interviews, and in videos from the Celebration Day concert he appears constantly to be looking to page for cues as to when to come in on something. I always figured him for a somewhat meek go-along-to-get-along type.
I wonder if Plant is similarly uneducated in the more technical aspects of music. If so, it might explain why Plant and Page have somewhat excluded Jones from what WordMan once described as their ‘innerer circle’ over the years. I remember reading once that Jones had commented he was surprised they’d remembered his phone number.
Robert Plant hadn’t had any traditional musical training - he sang Elvis tunes as a child, and jumped from band to band in his teens learning blues, soul and folk along the way. He did start a degree in accounting, but left school for music. He also laid asphalt for a time to earn money between gigs. Interestingly, he considered leaving music after Bonham died in 1980, and applied for and was accepted into teacher training at the Rudolf Steiner school, but did, obviously go on to a successful solo career.
As for why Plant and Page hadn’t invited Jones in 1994 for the “Unledded” MTV show, and the quote you read about, see here:
The “MTV Unplugged” gig was original only supposed to be Robert Plant:
In the end, the three are friends, but due to the long gulf of time and differing careers there have been riffs, but none to the level of say CCR.
Page and Jones could tour together, but there hasn’t been any concrete reasons why they haven’t. Supposedly they have written some songs together recently, but if we’ll ever hear them, who knows.
Thanks Fool in the Rain - I hadn’t read that about Plant offending Jones. Makes sense and too bad it endured for a while, but they all seem to be personable now.
Reminds me of the infamous Sheryl Crow situation, where Letterman approached her after her TV debut performing Leaving Las Vegas and asked her if it was autobiographical. She stammered out a Yes - but of course it was based on the book, later made into a movie which got Nic Cage an Oscar. The novelist hung out with her songwriting friends - the ones who helped her with the songs for her first album. They didn’t talk for years. She apologized but it took a while.
Starving Artist: please note that Theory knowledge is a weird thing. It can be a big part of your “standing” within a group of musicians, especially if what is being played is technically difficult. But, are you really going to try to out-cool Keith Richards, say, or BB King, or Eddie Van Halen with your theory?
I suspect Page and Jones are like an old bickering couple in a studio musician relationship. Jones knows Page has great song ideas and musicianship; Page knows that Jones can fill in ALL the GAPS - every frickin’ arrangement, instrumentation, horn-and-string charty stuff - EVERYTHING - as well as being a great player and writer himself. Easy to see Jimmy working through things, but always giving his Theory Pro the last word.
So I hear it like old friends - “so we do it this way?” “we do it the way we always did, you old fart.”
And Fool in the Rain - thanks for the Monahan info. I have downloaded a couple so will give them a listen. Yes, Train’s songs can be real earworms - Calling All Angels really sticks in my brain. I could do without Monahan’s lyrics, which can be insipidly awful, but come back for his voice and the strong tunes every time.
I believe Wordman nailed it. That’s how I’ve always thought their musical relationship to be. When you listen to Zeppelin songs, one can usually tell when Jones had a strong hand in the writing because it is more layered, more complex than the simpler guitar leads over the bass/drum tempo of the rock blues songs.
For example, songs like The Rain Song, No Quarter, Since I’ve been Loving You, Kashmir, Royal Orleans, Carouselambra are complex, layered songs. Compare them to the more simplistic* Rock n Roll, Black Dog, Communication Breakdown*.
Not to take anything away from Plant, Page, or Bonham’s writing, just that Jones worked on a deeper level.
Still no idea why they don’t tour together though. shrug
I’ve gone back and listened to a few Zeppelin tunes and I see what you’re talking about, Fool in the Rain, when it comes to Jones’ songs being more layered. And I appreciate the reminder as to Jones’ comment about them remembering his phone number. The knowledge you have regarding Led Zeppelin is pretty amazing, considering you’re a whippersnapper that came along after their heyday.
And thanks to you and WordMan, for the different perspective on Jones’ comments to Page during the Celebration Day rehearsals. Makes a lot more sense, IMO.
I hadn’t previously listened to any of Plant’s solo stuff or his work with Allison Krauss, but I took some time this evening to do so and I was very pleasantly surprised. I can see now why Plant would prefer to follow the path he’s been on rather than to get sucked into the Led Zeppelin machine. He’s doing some really good stuff and far different than the music he did during his time with Zeppelin.
I still wish Page, Jones and Bonham would hook up with a singer and go on tour. I’d love to watch them play, now that I’m old enough to appreciate their talent. When I saw them in '70 I was a whippersnapper myself and knew nothing about how to recognize and appreciate real talent. To me they were just guys who had songs on the radio, and I went to see them mostly because the opportunity presented itself and not because I was properly blown away by their musicianship. It’s embarrassing now to have to admit that. But on the other hand it makes me appreciate growing older more, because now I have an appreciation for beauty and talent (and at least a fair ability to recognize it) that was totally lacking in my youth.
Oops, forgot to thank you too, WordMan, for your comments on Music Theory. I wasn’t aware that Music Theory played that much of a role status-wise in rock bands. I just figured that whoever was able to come up with and play the best stuff was probably the one who was most admired and had the most influence within the band, although in some bands the talent seemed to have been spread around quite a lot. Take the Eagles, for example, where virtually every member was capable of and had written lots of good songs. And then overall I figured the guy with the most star power would almost invariably become the most valuable member of the band and effectively its boss.
Comments like yours and those of Fool in the Rain and the insights they provide are why I love these kinds of discussions. Thanks again, guys.
All good. I would suggest we should decouple Songwriting and Theory - both matter and are different. All of The Eagles seem to write songs, but I don’t how theory-grounded they are (no snark; I just don’t know).
In band power, first comes the money. If you write songs or are the frontman/woman responsible for their image, you have more power. But as we saw in Van Halen, the songs beat out the frontman. Henley and Frey wrote most songs and were the frontmen - sorry Don Felder, get to the back of the bus.
Theory comes into play if either you write songs that are complex, or your theory knowledge enables you to be part of the band’s “core team.” JPJ was part of the core team, but when it came to performing the songs a different way for MTV, Plant made a different choice. The songwriter (Page) stayed and the theory guy was a bit more expendable. So it goes.
Regarding the Eagles I knew Frey and Henley were the driving force and founders of the band. I just meant that they all seemed to be very talented as songwriters, thus no one was out of the loop in terms of ability to write good music.
It seems to me the guys without theory grounding are often the ones who write music that really speaks to people. Perhaps this is because they’re playing by ear (or heart) and aren’t hung up on the technicalities. This isn’t always the case though. Steely Dan has long been one of my favorite bands (saw them in concert two years ago and as expected they were excellent) and I’m pretty sure Donald Fagen and Walter Becker have a solid grounding in theory. I could be wrong but I’d be very surprised if so.
