Heh. . .
I grew up very conservative Mormon on a family which relied on the church to define morality. My still deeply religious, conservative Mormon mother would agree that all of these are wrong, wrong, wrong. Her morality was completely dependent on
As an adult I was surprised to see some friends and family who are also active, believing Mormons but who define their own sense of right and wrong. My friend is a Mormon bishop, the lay leader of a congregation, with a deep conviction that god lives and directs his life, yet he would agree with those statements for other people. He doesn’t care is someone is gay, trans, or has a different outlook on sex than him. He does believe that Mormons need to follow a particular conduct for sex, such as only between married people, but he doesn’t care at all what others think or do.
A fallacy in the OP is conflating the belief or disbelief in a god with a particular definition of morality. Not all believers condemn these particular tenets and not all atheists agree with them, although there will be a greater overlap among fundamentalist Christians.
In my experience, liberal Christians and liberal atheists both tend to have sense views concerning LGBT issues, for example.
/thread, right there. Why aren’t more people, politicians and otherwise, more honest about the fact that they don’t believe in God? Because people like DrDeth are dominant in our culture, and they view Atheism unreasonably negatively.
If I put myself back in the mindframe I had when I was a believer who didn’t like atheists, I have to admit that for me, my dislike stemmed from the fact that deep down I knew I didn’t believe in God either, but I had been conditioned to be ashamed of that fact, to the point that I couldn’t admit it to even myself. And that meant atheists made me feel very uncomfortable, until I got my own shit sorted out.
That’s not gonna be the source of dislike for all anti-atheists of course. Some people, especially from more thoroughly religious societies, seem to be under the impression that without God standing over their shoulder humans have normality and will murder or rape each other in the streets. And I’m sure there are many other reasons as well.
But that’s why it would be political suicide for a democratic candidate to admit their atheism.
As we noted in this thread, people hating atheists for their lack of faith is common, though not new. Do you have any examples of people hating other religions being fashionable again? Because I haven’t seen anything like that.
As much as equating liberalism with atheism, the OP is equating religion with intolerance. In other words, how can a religious person tolerate anyone who believes otherwise unless they themselves are secretly an atheist?
Why don’t conservatives and republicans fully embrace freedom of religion and consequently, democracy? I’m referring to things like putting “In God We Trust” on our money, “under God” in the pledge, courthouses with the ten commandments, etc. I’m not ok with state-sponsored expressions and I think pro-Christian sentiments are especially offensive; since it’s the majority, they get a pass? I’m kind of Christian I guess, but I more highly value the separation of church and state that many refuse to live up to. It’s hypocritical to say we have “freedom of religion” while trying to vilify people who aren’t religious. It’s also small-minded to think there aren’t plenty of atheists who are better, kinder people than some Christians. I know Gandhi had some serious flaws but I’ve got to give him props for this quote: “I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”
Interesting. I have sometimes wondered if that might be a driver of the grumpiness directed atheists’ way, but never heard a (former) theist confirm it.
Oh, excuse me. I thought most people were at least familiar with Richard Dawkins’ book, The God Delusion. In it he pointed out that anyone who believes in God is delusional and insane. I always get a little concerned when Europeans start saying things like this.
The last time Europeans were attacking the religious it ended with many, many tears.
But as I said, I am sure this time is different. After all, we are so much more advanced than our grandfathers’ generation.
Do you have any evidence that this is “fashionable”? The vast majority of “Europeans” are not atheist.
I would have supposed that discussions of fashion are rather subjective. I hope I am not mistaken.
Thank you for mentioning that most Europeans are not atheists. I know that mentioning that was important to you.
What you’re describing doesn’t necessarily indicate that the Democratic Party hold atheistic ideals or principles. Rather, it’s more of an emergent property (IMO) that happens when you try to be all-inclusive and not offend anyone. And so is the explicit lack of religious views in that “substance” you talk about. And so is the “practice” of being religious and acknowledging religion in liberal politicians’ public appearances and statements.
Taking an explicitly atheistic stance is basically taking a page from the GOP, where they effectively are saying “If you believe this way, then we’re your party, and here’s our platform that conforms to those beliefs. Everyone else can f**k off.”
It’s an essentially exclusive proposition- they’ve painted themselves as having very defined religious and social positions and are conforming their platform around those positions. Meanwhile the Democrats have painted themselves as having as their chief religious and social position be one of inclusivity- everyone is welcome. And then trying to mold their platform around that. Which is considerably more difficult; the old adage that if you try to please everyone, you please no one comes to mind.
I’m just saying, oppression of atheists by the religious is FAR more common than the other way around nowadays, even in places like formerly Soviet Russia.
Since you’re in Qatar, you probably know all about that.
Not to mention that Apostasy is punishable by death, though at least they haven’t executed anyone for that reason.
Oh, I retired from Saudi Arabia about four months ago. I am now retired in the US. I shall have to figure out how to change my profile information.
(I note 24% of Saudis seem to be atheists. I have never seen anyone punished for it.) -=Linky=-
As for atheism in European countries we have to admit that surveys probably cannot give us perfect numbers. Nonetheless, some figures for “nonreligious” people are:
China 90% claim to be non-religious. Imagine that.
Sweden 73 (Highest in Europe)
Czech Republic 72
United Kingdom 69
Netherlands 66
Azerbaijan 64
Belgium 64
Norway 62
Denmark 61
Switzerland 58
Spain 57
Ireland 56
Finland 55
Slovenia 53
Austria 53
Latvia 52
France 50 And after that, fewer than half the people seem to be “non-religious.”
That is some next level minimization of a draconian, inhumane law.
Now that you’re settled in the US, have you given any thought to whether you’re ready to come out as a Christian?
I have been out as a Christian all my life. I have no idea what you are trying to say.
You are so brave! After all, Christians are the most discriminated against group in the US
So what? What have these numbers to do with any alleged discrimination against religious people by atheists? In which European country is something like this happening? You can strike out China and Azerbaijan, last time I checked they weren’t in Europe.
So, @Velocity, just wondering if you’ve had any additional thoughts on the question posed in the OP.
I am sorry I seem to have upset you. That was not my intent.
It is just a list. I thought they idea of a nation that is 90% non-religious was rather shocking, that is why I included China. I also included a note saying I found the number remarkable.
Persecution of religious people in Europe? Sure, look at the laws governing what people may wear in France.
But of course I am sure persecuting people for how they dress is OK. After all, it is all so scientific. Not like last time.
Please excuse me. I have to go offline for a few days.
Dialing down the temperature a bit. What people are telling you is that atheists do not feel free to be open with their beliefs because of how they are treated by Christians, who hold the overwhelming majority of political and social capital in the US. There are many examples of Christians’ negative attitudes toward atheists in this very thread. Turning that into a pity party for Christians, who enjoy the freedom to express their beliefs in virtually any setting in the US without censure, is in the very least tone deaf.
Another example. My local chamber of commerce recently passed a law (resolution?) that allowed a moment of prayer before every meeting. They have ministers from all denominations come in to bless the proceedings. All Christian denominations, that is. They were asked about other religions and basically handwaved it away. When I had to select my local candidates, an overwhelming majority were outspoken evangelical Christians. But then I didn’t have many Democratic options, either.