I suppose you are too young to have ever actually gambled. But no, gambling does not require faith. When you push that button on the slot machine you should have no faith you are going to win. (If you do you should get the hell away from the casino as quickly as possible.) When I play the only time I’m surprised is when I come out ahead.
I’m not putting faith in there not being a god - I am drawing a conclusion based on the evidence and lack of evidence. I can support it. You clearly can’t support your faith in the god you believe in. And you can’t even critique all the arguments you see here without the use of irrelevant Bible verses. You really need to think why that is.
I think you misunderstood the question. I believe you’re being asked if putting your faith in God works out better than chance. The answer is no, but I’m not sure the two of you would define your terms the same way.
It’s already been mentioned, but if supernatural things like it’s-one-but-it’s=three are allowed, anything is possible. That’s why I do not believe the verse from Dire Straits:
“. . . two men think they’re Jesus, one of them must be wrong.”
Now, if two men thought they were Napoleon, at least one of them must be wrong. But, theologywise, Jesus has the mojo. He can be two places at once. How can you forbid him to be even an infinite number of places at once?
How can you forbid the supernatural from manifesting as no gods + one god + lots of gods at the same time? Are you really powerful enough to forbid that?
I’m also familiar with involuntary and unwanted thoughts. Thoughts that never went completely away after and that indicated a sea change in my worldview.
I was delivering pizzas one night. I had one in the bag and two back in the car (also in a bag) and the rush was on. The one in the bag had to go to an apartment. The building had that layout that pizza deliverers hate. There was a second story, but no second story hallway. Each set of stairs served only two apartments and the doors were turned to face the platform at the top of the stairs, so that it was impossible to see the numbers of the upper story doors without climbing the stairs.
There were also no signs or maps to give the least clue how the numbers were distributed. Half of the upper landing door lights were out, making the stairs dark. A few of the door numbers were missing. And some of the stairs were rickety. I’m going up and down stairs in the dark, trying to work out which apartment gets the pizza without tripping and falling and suddenly BLAM!
In the middle of all of that I am suddenly seized with a sure and complete certainty that when I die, that will be the end of me. Because that’s the way the universe works for all living things. Dammit! I do not need that, and I certainly do not need that* now*. I bet it’s that door back there with the number missing. Not that they put these numbers on in order or anything. Cut it out! I do not need to think about this! I’m going to be embarassed if I knock on the door and it’s not the right apartment, but I don’t see a better prospect and the two in the car aren’t getting any hotter. Alright, maybe this means I’m an atheist and not an agnostic. I’ll think about it later. Shut up! I have change to make, here.
It grumbled in the back of my mind for the rest of the night, but mostly let me get on with things. I don’t think about it often, but it’s still there.
Now, I’m guessing that you wouldn’t take my experience as proof that you will not go to heaven. Even if it was involuntary and unwanted and even if it was a sign of a change in my worldview. And I would not expect you to. That kind of internal mental experience is not proof of anything except what’s going on in the mind that’s experiencing it.
Sorry if this feels like a pile-on. I’d like to say that you’ve been very polite and open in this thread. I’ve appreciated your honesty. Many times witnessing threads get very rude around here and your approach has been a big reason why this one hasn’t. Count me as another member who would enjoy seeing you stay around for other threads.
And what of the people that don’t experience that? Is it through a lack of effort on their part? On God’s part? On other Christians’ part for not being more capable/convincing missionaries? You had the good fortune of going to camps and meetings specifically for building a relationship with God. What of someone who isn’t exposed to any of that? What about those who were born into a world without those resources? Do they get revelations as well? Through what fault is it a child who was born into an Islamic family, feels that connection, but is led to believe by his surroundings that it is actually Allah he’s feeling and not God? Is his revelation no less real than yours but due to circumstance you find salvation and not him?
Even with globalization, only 1/3 of the world identifies themselves as Christian, and amongst those includes Catholics, Protestants, Non-denominational, etc. If the message of God is so true, beautiful, and undeniable, why is it such a small percent?
So you used a handful of moments of levity to justify that a personal relationship with God can exist. Then you take that and subsequently confirm all of the other cliched platitudes that the church perpetuates?
There’s an easy, logical reason as to why God chose to reveal himself to the Jewish people first - it’s their folk religion, no different than any other mythology common to EVERY tribe of human across the globe. The difficult, illogical, convoluted reason is that God decided to follow the most incomplete, long-winded, roundabout way of sharing his love with mankind.
You claim that it’s according to the wisdom of God that we are incapable of knowing. That this deep truth is hidden to us in our ignorance. However other truths have been revealed easily and readily to us. We know what love for our family is like. We know what love for our spouse is like. We can comprehend right and wrong, we can understand science of all disciplines, math, logic, philosophy, music. Even biblically we were once so capable that we almost reached the gates of heaven itself through Babel then God willingly and intentionally muddled us to keep the knowledge from us.
Why? Because he feared us? Because he loved us? Because it’s all part of a weird folklore of an obscure tribe of nomads wandering the near east?
You can choose to believe what you want. However if you want to ask us what the difference is between gamble and faith is? Our answer is a question in turn of if you know the difference between faith and delusion.
But it kinda has happened. If the Bible is really the word of god, then shouldn’t god be accountable for pieces of information presented there that we now know are incorrect (such as the world being several billion years old, as opposed to 6000)? Did god not know how old the world actually was? Did he lie for some reason?
And why does the fact that god created everything make him automatically right? Do you believe it’s not possible for a parent to do wrong to their children?
EXACTLY the same thing happened to me when I was less than half my current age. Well, I wasn’t delivering pizza but exactly the same realization in the middle of doing something completely mundane and unrelated to the sudden and crushing revelation of my mortality.
And we’ve never met, right? I mean I don’t even know your real name! Yet, here we are on the same message board, on the same day, on the same thread, recounting the same experience!
Okay, but the point you guys are all missing is that The Bible and God CAN BE TRUE. Yes, so can other religions or no such thing as God. BUT The Bible and God CAN BE TRUE.
Whether you like it OR NOT, It CAN BE TRUE
Whether you believe in it OR NOT, IT CAN BE TRUE
Whether you live life without knowing or wanting to know God, HE CAN STILL BE TRUE
**The verse where Satan is preventing you from understanding CAN BE TRUE. Maybe that is the reason you don’t understand. ** 2 Corinthians 4:4
He is true even when you don’t believe. He is true even when you deny Him. He is true even when you find it illogical, He is true even if you live life without worries, therefore thinking that there is no need for God. He is who He is, He was here before we were created, and He is everlasting.
Moan all you want about a cruel God, BUT HE IS STILL TRUE
Mock all you want about a weak God, BUT HE IS STILL TRUE
Deny all you want about his Word, BUT HE IS STILL TRUE
Try applying human logic to doubt His existence, BUT HE IS STILL TRUE
Hate Him all you want, curse Him all you want, HE IS STILL TRUE
Use your worldly knowledge and your eyes to disprove Him, BUT HE IS STILL TRUE
Basically all you guys are doing is using worldly knowledge, a world that He created, to disprove Him.
What you can’t see doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. Use this to believe in unicorns. I don’t care. HE CAN STILL BE TRUE.
But I know that God is true through personal experiences. Mock those experiences. I don’t care. There was even one time, when I was furious, that I told God straight up that I was going to worship Satan, and right at that moment, I felt a sharp pain in my stomach, I quickly became frightened and apologized, and it went away. Doubt this experience, Mock it, Belittle it, I don’t care.
I don’t care if you need someone to directly prove to you using human logic that the Bible is true. God is still TRUE.
Call me closed-minded, brainwashed- I don’t care. GOD IS STILL TRUE.
Yes, I can see how I may sound irrational right now, but I don’t care. GOD IS STILL TRUE.
Yes, i may be repeating I don’t care over and over again, But I don’t care. GOD IS STILL TRUE.
Try using logic or complex thinking to prove God’s existence, have fun with that. God is beyond our comprehension, we will never fully know Him until we see Him face to face. Find this as an excuse? I don’t care. GOD IS STILL TRUE
In the end, you’re making the choice, You’re using your free will whether or not you understand that you are.
Jeremiah 5:21
Hear this, you foolish and senseless people, who have eyes but do not see, who have ears but do not hear
And you may say, that’s what a person does, quote a verse in the Bible that criticizes others when they don’t believe in a religion.
Yes, that’s exactly what I’m doing. If you want to take the risk. Then go ahead. I did my part. You now have no excuse. I just personally think that it’s not worth eternity in hell. But that’s up to you guys. You’ll see in the end. Mock it now, but regret it later. Not my life, but yours. Insult me now, but we’ll see who has the last laugh.
Revelations 1:7-8
“Look, he is coming with the clouds,”
and “every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him”;
and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.”
So shall it be! Amen.
“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”
Mark 6:11
And if any place will not welcome you or listen to you, leave that place and shake the dust off your feet as a testimony against them."
Even if I agreed with this- so what? Everything is possible if you define “possible” broadly enough.
By the same token, if he’s not real, he’s not real no matter how much you believe in him. (Or how many Bible quotes you copy or how blue you make your text.) This is why people are more interested in your own views than the Bible itself.
One thing is for sure: nothing says “I am a rational, open-minded critical thinker” than COPY AND PASTING THE SAME WORDS OVER AND OVER AGAIN IN CAPS.
I disagree. The world as we know it is the ultimate miracle of happenstance. Just an awe inspiring happy combination of pure chance and luck. And that is far more wonderful to me than the though of it being created and planned by some being.
Timo - you said above that you hadn’t actually read all of the Bible. Go and do it, but read it with a critic’s eye, as though you were reading a biography or a novel. And then go and read the Torah, the Qur’an, read the teachings of Buddhism, dip your toe into ALL faiths. I bet you’ll find a lot of overlap, a lot that you can agree with, and a lot that makes you roll your eyes.
MEN wrote all these. Man is the originator of religion, and religion has killed more men, women and babies than all the plagues and earthquakes and floods that ever were. that ever were.
Go read, Go LISTEN. Don’t assume, critique what you read and hear but not through a biblical filter. Then you will know what’s right for you.
For me, I don’t believe that there’s a god (any god) in part because I’ve been studying comparative religion. I grew up in a very conservative christian church. After that I dabbled in Wicca and also studied up on Hinduism, Buddhism, various historical religious traditions from Greece and Rome and a ton of others. All of the conflicting beliefs as well as the similarities between a number of them helped lead me to conclude that none of them are true.
What if you choose the wrong one? I would hate to have Zeus pissed off because I hadn’t worshiped him and end up in Tartarus. I suppose the Asphodel Fields wouldn’t be too bad.
Life experience has also shown me that there isn’t anything supernatural out there.
And really Timo, using the bible to prove the bible is a circular argument that can’t be won. If I write a book saying that I created the universe, where is your evidence that it’s not true?
Cool! Let’s see if we can extend the coincidence. I was right around thirty when it happened.
Yes, but to be fair, humans instinctively form social groups and compete with other groups. Religion is just one more thing distinguising US from THEM. If it hand’t been religion, it probably would have been something else.
I don’t think about Satan often. But every once in awhile I do. I’m starting to believe that Satan is the Christian god of teenagers. I mean, that fits not only the actual statements in the bible, but also most of the additional stories that started accreting around the name in the Middle Ages.
No, Genesis as it is written cannot be true. A 6,000 year old earth and creation the order given there has been disproved as much as anything can be outside of math.
The odds of the god you believe in being true are much less than the odds that I will win the lottery this week. Only a fool would live his life assuming he’s going to win the lottery.
Buy my course for $10,000 and riches can be yours. It can be true! You denying it is just you being negative and succumbing to the naysayers.
Kid, you haven’t learned about con artists yet. You are ripe for the plucking.
And here is the old switcheroo - from “Can be true” to “Is true.”
