Why don't people believe in God?

[simster]

@Timo

But you can have those experiences…
but that requires a leap of faith

If you don’t take that leap of faith, you won’t ever know what I feel.
If you don’t know, then you’ll never understand.

Again, I’ll come back some time later to see if learning other religions can help in strengthening the reason for my belief, which it probably will.

How can you claim that my experiences are less valid, less true, than yours?

There are plenty of “baptised” folks - who according to you - all get the “Holy Spirit” at baptisim that disagree on very simple ‘bible truths’- who are you to say which one of those is true, which one is ‘false’ ?

With as much disagreement over what ‘the bible means’ - that alone should be enough to prove that it can’t come from a ‘truth loving god’.

How much false hood must a work contain before the whole is declared unfit? a little? 5%? 50%?

Do you believe in the literal, global flood of Noah?

How old is the earth?

[Tequila_Party]

Timo, if you want to reach people and minister to their souls, hope they convert and further spread a gospel that you believe in, the way to do that is by living an exemplary and helpful life. Look at all this time you’ve spent on here. Look at all the time you’ve apparently spent memorizing scripture. And you’ve also apparently spent a great deal of time in church.

Now, if you were to reach me and get me to change to your viewpoint, none of those things would do it. No, what it would take would you being a humble servant. Someone who puts others needs above your own. Someone whose whole life is about helping, in such a way that it highlights the best of your God. If you spent all that time that I outlined above working at a soup kitchen, building homes for the poor and reading to the elderly, I’d be more apt to believe there was something more worthwhile going on than simply a fear of hell.

Anyway, I’m hoping you’re young enough to learn. I also appreciate you responding to me about being gleeful. It’s good of you to admit a mistake. A lot more contemplation in general may be in order and less frustration might not rule your days.

[sisu]

@Timo

Again, I’ll come back some time later to see if learning other religions can help in strengthening the reason for my belief, which it probably will.

Good if nothing else we have helped you on the path of discovery, we are pleased.

But please remember to read up on confirmation bias, it would be easy to see lots of parallels in other religions that you may say strengthen your faith but in reality what it could do (if you are open) is raise some very philosophical questions about religion.

Again thanks for the witnessing and good luck on your path, FYI we do throw the best parties.

[Czarcasm]

@Timo

Technically, Soddom was constantly committing all kinds of sins, far worse than we see now.

1. Technically, it is spelled “Sodom”.
2. There is practically no evidence such a city ever existed.
3. Some Biblical scholars believe that the sins that got the city destroyed were inhospitality and greed, and we’ve got plenty of that to go around.

Judging from this post and some of your previous posts, it might behoove you to actually read the book instead of waving it around like a weapon. Why should any of us listen to you if you seem ignorant about your own religion?

[Mangetout]

@Timo

Okay, but the point you guys are all missing is that The Bible and God CAN BE TRUE. Yes, so can other religions or no such thing as God. BUT The Bible and God CAN BE TRUE.

Whether you like it OR NOT, It CAN BE TRUE

Whether you believe in it OR NOT, IT CAN BE TRUE

Whether you live life without knowing or wanting to know God, HE CAN STILL BE TRUE

**The verse where Satan is preventing you from understanding CAN BE TRUE. Maybe that is the reason you don’t understand. ** 2 Corinthians 4:4
He is true even when you don’t believe. He is true even when you deny Him. He is true even when you find it illogical, He is true even if you live life without worries, therefore thinking that there is no need for God. He is who He is, He was here before we were created, and He is everlasting.

Moan all you want about a cruel God, BUT HE IS STILL TRUE
Mock all you want about a weak God, BUT HE IS STILL TRUE
Deny all you want about his Word, BUT HE IS STILL TRUE
Try applying human logic to doubt His existence, BUT HE IS STILL TRUE
Hate Him all you want, curse Him all you want, HE IS STILL TRUE
Use your worldly knowledge and your eyes to disprove Him, BUT HE IS STILL TRUE
Basically all you guys are doing is using worldly knowledge, a world that He created, to disprove Him.
What you can’t see doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. Use this to believe in unicorns. I don’t care. HE CAN STILL BE TRUE.

But I know that God is true through personal experiences. Mock those experiences. I don’t care. There was even one time, when I was furious, that I told God straight up that I was going to worship Satan, and right at that moment, I felt a sharp pain in my stomach, I quickly became frightened and apologized, and it went away. Doubt this experience, Mock it, Belittle it, I don’t care.

I don’t care if you need someone to directly prove to you using human logic that the Bible is true. God is still TRUE.

Call me closed-minded, brainwashed- I don’t care. GOD IS STILL TRUE.
Yes, I can see how I may sound irrational right now, but I don’t care. GOD IS STILL TRUE.
Yes, i may be repeating I don’t care over and over again, But I don’t care. GOD IS STILL TRUE.

Try using logic or complex thinking to prove God’s existence, have fun with that. God is beyond our comprehension, we will never fully know Him until we see Him face to face. Find this as an excuse? I don’t care. GOD IS STILL TRUE

In the end, you’re making the choice, You’re using your free will whether or not you understand that you are.

Jeremiah 5:21
Hear this, you foolish and senseless people, who have eyes but do not see, who have ears but do not hear

And you may say, that’s what a person does, quote a verse in the Bible that criticizes others when they don’t believe in a religion.

Yes, that’s exactly what I’m doing. If you want to take the risk. Then go ahead. I did my part. You now have no excuse. I just personally think that it’s not worth eternity in hell. But that’s up to you guys. You’ll see in the end. Mock it now, but regret it later. Not my life, but yours. Insult me now, but we’ll see who has the last laugh.

Revelations 1:7-8
“Look, he is coming with the clouds,”
and “every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him”;
and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.”
So shall it be! Amen.
“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”
Mark 6:11
And if any place will not welcome you or listen to you, leave that place and shake the dust off your feet as a testimony against them."

What you’re demonstrating here though it that you have stopped searching for the truth, because you place a higher value on certainty.

You would rather be certain and be 100% wrong than 75% right, with assorted doubts.

And you’ll never know if you’re wrong, because you have decided to stop checking if you are wrong. You have decided that its more important to doggedly insist that you are right, instead. And if you’ll never know if you’re wrong, that means you’ll also never know if you’re right.

[Snarky_Kong]

@razncain

Cool, I thought you just pulled that number out of your arse until I did a search engine on just it. Shouldn’t it be multiplied one more time though?

No. You’re only matching the order twice.

[QuickSilver]

@Timo

But you can have those experiences…
but that requires a leap of faith

If you don’t take that leap of faith, you won’t ever know what I feel.
If you don’t know, then you’ll never understand.

Again, I’ll come back some time later to see if learning other religions can help in strengthening the reason for my belief, which it probably will.

While you’re away studying other religions, try to spend a little time considering the possibility that some people don’t have a need for god or faith. And that these people live happy lives filled with kindness, love, friends and families. You may find safety in numbers with fellow brother and sister believers; But consider the fact that you use god, faith and bible as a shield against some unspecified enemy trying to corrupt your virtues and keep you from getting into heaven. Is life in fear of punishment but a god that you love the sort of life you want to live?

Spend some time trying to imagine a world where YOU are wrong, and this life is all that there is. How would that change the way you live your life today? I mean aside from freeing up your Sundays…

[pancakes3]

@Timo

Okay, obviously you failed to see the point but you’re now directing to another problem. I was describing the difference between testing and temptations. And I just so happened to use an example that just crossed my mind.

Explain denying outright…you don’t have to run to each person and tell them how you’re not going to lust at the girl. Ignoring is enough… because you’re not letting yourself into that temptation when you ignore…

Do you have a conscience? I think that’s enough to guide you, as well as tests from God. Okay, so you’re saying that people are being forced to kill? people are being forced to rape? that’s what you believe? Because that is temptation, God does not tempt…
He tests, it’s different than temptation…

Your example simply boiled down to “God only sets the pieces up. How you react differentiates tests and tempts”. If I don’t lust, God was merely testing me. If I lust, I was tempted on my own accord and God was still only testing me.

Either way, you’re saying God sent that girl. Well I’m sure God is sending lots of girls. And guys. And manipulates events so that people become fermentors and vendors of alcohol. Growers, manufacturers, and vendors of drugs. Unscrupulous, greedy usurers of money. And so on. An intricate system of tests upon tests so that we all play pawns in a tangled web of testing just so God knows how we act in accordance to these tests.

You’re saying God is constantly prodding and cajoling actions to create environments that we each perceive and react to, and is noting our reaction. Our reactions dictates if we are tempted or not but God is merely testing.

Well I find this objectionable. In order for me to be tempted by drugs, someone else’s life HAS to be tempted in such a way that he offers me drugs. By definition. His life was molded solely for this one test. If I’m tested again by drugs, there goes another life that HAS to be ruined in order for my salvation. Every time someone confronts me with sin, it is a life that God by necessity ruined (possibly for all eternity) in order for me to be tested. Not only do I find that objectionable, I find it deplorable, but luckily ultimately, implausible.

[monavis]

@Timo

Just out of curiosity, why don’t people believe in God? I’m interested in your personal experiences or just events that prevents your belief.

The reason I’m asking is because why wouldn’t people want to have a relationship with a loving God. If you respond with “because how can there be a loving God in an evil world”. It’s not God that makes it evil, it’s us. He gave each human free will, which means that we each have the ability to do what we please. Some choose to use their free will to murder, which affects others, mostly innocents. Others choose their free will for corruption or taking advantage of others.

However, even if this does occur, don’t you think that eternal punishment in hell for those who harm the innocent bad enough? Think about it, eternal means forever and ever and ever and ever, it’s never-ending, 24/7. If you’ve ever sat near a huge campfire, you’d know that as it burns bigger, you sit further away. Think about it, you’re not even in the fire, and you can already feel your skin hurt. Hell is a lot worse. You’re actually in it.

Then if you say, why would a God allow people to burn in the first place. I’ll just ask you, would you allow just anyone to live in your house? Heaven is where God dwells. Home is where you dwell. Would you let a murderer, who doesn’t repent of his wrongdoings, to live with your family?
(God did not make people murder, it’s their free will, they have a conscience. Jeffrey Dahmer a serial killer drank a lot of alcohol before killing his victims and sometimes cannibalizing them. Also, not all children abused or with terrible childhoods at a young age become serial killers. )
Would you let a corrupt person who takes advantage of others to live with you eternally? I know I wouldn’t. It’s the same with God, why would you expect him to do the same?
And then you might say, why would a God let terrible events happen. Why doesn’t he just show himself? And this is just probably one reason out of the many. But it’s like, God wants us to choose to love him (again, free will) because don’t you think love is truly tested if you love what you can’t see? If you believe, your reward is eternal life in Heaven. Riches in heaven are far better than earth’s temporary riches. Earthly riches are like temporary satisfaction. Rich people want to get richer, to fulfill something missing. But God can fulfill what’s missing. Think about it this way people are born, and people die. They bring nothing to this earth, and they leave with nothing. When you die, future generations will just live their lives, never even giving you a moments though (unless you contributed in some way, like Albert Einstein or George Washington, but then it’s like periodic thoughts). However, if you choose to accept God, and just pray that he’ll come into your life, and just build a relationship with him like you would with another human. He already knows your sins, your struggles, your secrets, and he can help you through it. Just pray for it.

I’ve struggled with these thoughts before. I even though God was cruel to let bad events happen, I even thought that I couldn’t follow a God who would allow negativity in the world. Sometimes, I still unconsciously do when I read the news. But then I just have to remind myself that God has everything under control. We know how the world is going to end (Antichrist), and we just need to have faith.

Haha, that’s just my take on it. Also, in a way, God already does show his miracles. Look at the clouds, look up cuttlefish, look at the exotic animals like those giant fish and turtles, look at the The Wave in Arizona/Utah, Look at the national parks, in short, just look at nature, and just think, there’s a God that made it all. And everything you see will become more incredible.

If your read Matthew you will see that Jesus said the end would come in that generation. Many churches teach the word generation didn’t mean the same then, but Matthew also wrote that there was 14 generations between David and Jesus, just the same as it is used now.

[monavis]

@Timo

I hope this helps/hope this was what you mean

Romans 14:1-23
“As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand. One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind”

Luke 20:46-47
“Beware of the scribes, who like to walk around in long robes, and love greetings in the marketplaces and the best seats in the synagogues and the places of honor at feasts, who devour widows’ houses and for a pretense make long prayers. They will receive the greater condemnation.”

Mark 7: 1-23

The Pharisees and some of the teachers of the law who had come from Jerusalem gathered around Jesus 2 and saw some of his disciples eating food with hands that were defiled, that is, unwashed. 3 (The Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they give their hands a ceremonial washing, holding to the tradition of the elders. 4 When they come from the marketplace they do not eat unless they wash. And they observe many other traditions, such as the washing of cups, pitchers and kettles.5 So the Pharisees and teachers of the law asked Jesus, “Why don’t your disciples live according to the tradition of the elders instead of eating their food with defiled hands?”

6 He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written:

“**‘These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
7 They worship me in vain;
their teachings are merely human rules.’
8 You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to human traditions.”
**
9 And he continued, “**You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions! **10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and mother,’ and, ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’ 11 But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is Corban (that is, devoted to God)— 12 then you no longer let them do anything for their father or mother. 13 Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.”

14 Again Jesus called the crowd to him and said, “Listen to me, everyone, and understand this. 15 Nothing outside a person can defile them by going into them. Rather, it is what comes out of a person that defiles them.” [16]

17 After he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about this parable. 18 “Are you so dull?” he asked. “Don’t you see that nothing that enters a person from the outside can defile them? 19 For it doesn’t go into their heart but into their stomach, and then out of the body.” (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean.)

20 He went on: “What comes out of a person is what defiles them. 21 For it is from within, out of a person’s heart, that evil thoughts come—sexual immorality, theft, murder, 22 adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. 23 All these evils come from inside and defile a person.”

Surely you realize this is just the words and ideas of another human?

[monavis]

@Timo

Haha , yes, that’s exactly what I’m doing.
I think the quote of the evil adulterous generation may have been the wrong verse to use…
I’m just saying that I, myself, will never be able to prove physically that God is real. It’s more of an internal experience between you and God.
Read the book of Psalms. What those people felt back then, is how many people who love the Lord feel now. It can’t be a coincidence. It’s the Holy Spirit.

Take note of the psalmist who writes" I said you are gods, and son’s of the most high. Jesus backs this up in John 10.

[Razncain]

@Voyager

Nope - on PLATO from 1975 - 1977 when I left Illinois. PLATO had the first instant messaging, (term-talk) the first message boards (pad) the first MUDs, the first multi-user interactive games, and some of the first touch screens. Oh, and the first on-line newspaper, for which I wrote a Star Trek column.

But thanks for falling into my trap.

I nearly fell into that trap too, just didn’t think anything was going on that far back. Weren’t you on Jeopardy too? Seems like I read a thread of all of the Jeopardy contestants that are from the Straight Dope board, and was really impressed how many we had, and thought I remember you being one of them. Lot of interesting smart people here. I’m not worthy, but appreciate you guys putting up with me, nevertheless.

[Razncain]

@Timo

Temptation comes from our desires…{snip}

I don’t know what they are teaching you in Sunday school. You stated God doesn’t tempt. I showed where there are instances where God is doing the tempting in the bible, but you put it back on us again. Is there any act or crime that this biblical God could commit that you would finally say, this is so ridiculously insane that it is comical, or will he get a free pass each and every time when it appears we are playing with a stacked deck?

When Jesus went into the wilderness to fast for 40 days and nights, the devil gave him three main temptations, but not a single one of them had anything to do with sexual desire. For lust of the flesh, the devil tempted him with stones that he wanted Jesus to turn into loaves of bread. There there was lust of the eyes, where he showed him material wealth, and the other was pride. Since the bible is often preoccupied with our bedtime habits elsewhere, I thought it was a little strange it didn’t come up here.

Elsewhere Jesus does talk about how if a man looks at a woman with lust he already has committed adultery in his heart. He goes on to say, if a body part causes you to sin, to tear it out. In Matthew 5:28-30, some people took those scriptures literally to do just that, and some resorted to self-castration including Origen, one of the earlier church fathers.

Maybe Epicurus can explain it better than me:

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”

Here’s how Einstein explained it:

“Nobody, certainly, will deny that the idea of the existence of an omnipotent, just, and omnibeneficent personal God is able to accord man solace, help, and guidance; also, by virtue of its simplicity it is accessible to the most undeveloped mind. But, on the other hand, there are decisive weaknesses attached to this idea in itself, which have been painfully felt since the beginning of history. That is, if this being is omnipotent, then every occurrence, including every human action, every human thought, and every human feeling and aspiration is also His work; how it is possible to think of holding men responsible for their deeds and thoughts before such an almighty Being? In giving out punishment and rewards He would to a certain extent be passing judgment on Himself. How can this be combined with the goodness and righteousness ascribed to Him?”

How would a believer respond to Einstein’s last question? Is it something along these lines: “I don’t pretend to understand it all, I just follow what he tells me, the best I can make out whatever it is he is saying. I know that Jesus loves me and died for me, you, and every single one of us are miserable ingrates and unworthy sinners that are not deserving, but he still loves us and lets us live. He didn’t have to do this for us, but he did. I don’t have to understand it; I just have to believe it, and that’s good enough for me.”

[Razncain]

Timo, there is a lot to wade through here, did you give your account of a personal experience, or just tell us you had one? If you have, I’d appreciate you pointing out which post it was.

[not_what_you_d_expect]

I’m not a christian, but I doubt I could enjoy heaven knowing that there were people burning for eternity, for the simple sin of not believing in a god that chooses not to introduce itself. I don’t think I’d have the last laugh.

A god with the power to torture someone for eternity, who exercises that power, does not deserve praise.

[Dung_Beetle]

@razncain

Timo, there is a lot to wade through here, did you give your account of a personal experience, or just tell us you had one? If you have, I’d appreciate you pointing out which post it was.

Post #79

@Timo

I wasn’t taught about it in school. I don’t think that’s allowed in most public schools…I could be wrong. Maybe private ones though.

My mother is Christian that allowed introduced me to Him. I was basically dragged to go to church when I was young…haha. I also didn’t really understand it, but I didn’t really have a choice. To be honest, when I grew older, the only reason I still attended church was because of the people. I had friends, and it was fun. So…I slept sometimes through the messages because they were really long. Then my mom wanted me to be baptized at 13. At that time, it didn’t occur to me to want to be baptized. But to stop her nagging, I agreed. Haha, In fact, when a full-timer asked why I was baptized, I told him it was because Jesus was baptized at 13…which it totallly not true at aalllll.

So then I continued going to church, and what not. It was basically my mother’s God and not mine. There’s this saying in our church, that, although the same God, you want your own personal experience with God. And that’s what I didn’t really have. But through troubles in High School, where Junior and Senior year were the worst, I had to really lean on something to help me. So, I kind of thought, what the heck, and out of desperation, I just prayed to Him constantly. Prayers like, and not word for word, because I have no clue, but like small prayers, like when a full-timer would tell us to ask God to come into our lives or to be real to us, that’s what I did. The change didn’t come drastically, like it was a sudden life change, but it came eventually. Sometimes it felt like this, beautifully explained by him.

“The thought was involuntary and unwanted. I crowded it out of my mind. But I never wholly forgot it or the occasion. I had to crowd it out of my mind. If I had completed it, I should have had to say: Design presupposes God. I did not then know that, at that moment, the finger of God was first laid upon my forehead. - Whittaker Chambers”

This thought happened to him, I believe, when he looked at his daughter.

So as you can see, I didn’t really fully, consciously, acknowledge, or wholly believe that God was real. He was just my mother’s God. But it was the first step, of baptism, and then prayer, that allowed me to be Christian. It was definitely with his mercy. And not trying to be a drama queen or anything haha, but I feel this is important, and nobody that I know face to face knows this, but I definitely did try to commit suicide by hanging because of the emotional pain, but something inside me said no, it was just a stronger feeling than the emotional pain. So it wasn’t like I was introduced to any other religions before Christianity that allowed me to outweigh which religion was better or more logical. I don’t know, I feel like this is a bit too personal to share, but whatever. I’ll just click submit reply.

[Razncain]

Thanks DB. I read that, but thought it might be more. I thought it might be more like a personal revelation that many people say they have which often occur during the night while sleeping or right before falling asleep. Some have lucid dreams. Others have the NDE and OBE, and won’t shut up about it, while still others play it safe and say it is too personal to talk about.

[Timo]

@monavis

Surely you realize this is just the words and ideas of another human?

Yeah, I’m going to have to investigate on the Bible, but the question I was answering was of a post that said that he knew a lot of so called Christians that were bad people. Or so called people that followed God.

Those verses were to tell him that those people that claim to follow God yet commit actions that even unbelievers know is atrocious, will deserve their punishment. Regardless whether you believe the Bible is true or not, if you do,then you know this will happen, If you don’t, then it’s quite sad knowing that people are leading others astray because of this so called religion. However, it’s just maybe comforting to know, that they are deceivers and will be given consequences when their time comes and not glory that they might expect.

[Czarcasm]

@Timo

Yeah, I’m going to have to investigate on the Bible, but the question I was answering was of a post that said that he knew a lot of so called Christians that were bad people. Or so called people that followed God.

Those verses were to tell him that those people that claim to follow God yet commit actions that even unbelievers know is atrocious, will deserve their punishment. Regardless whether you believe the Bible is true or not, if you do,then you know this will happen, If you don’t, then it’s quite sad knowing that people are leading others astray because of this so called religion. However, it’s just maybe comforting to know, that they are deceivers and will be given consequences when their time comes and not glory that they might expect.

Which version of the Bible do you follow?

[simster]

@Timo

Yeah, I’m going to have to investigate on the Bible, but the question I was answering was of a post that said that he knew a lot of so called Christians that were bad people. Or so called people that followed God.

Those verses were to tell him that those people that claim to follow God yet commit actions that even unbelievers know is atrocious, will deserve their punishment. Regardless whether you believe the Bible is true or not, if you do,then you know this will happen, If you don’t, then it’s quite sad knowing that people are leading others astray because of this so called religion. However, it’s just maybe comforting to know, that they are deceivers and will be given consequences when their time comes and not glory that they might expect.

Who’s fault is it if they are following ‘their understanding’ of the bible after having been baptized and receiving the ‘holy spirit’ ? You said all a person needs to do is ‘show a little faith and get baptized to receive all these deep insights into the holy book’ - who are you to question the holy spirit in these other people?

And you dared to call me clueless -