Ok then. So to get back to the point: yes, there are billions of other people who think their religions are true as you think yours is. They’re not all going through the motions. (Some of them are going through the motions, but so are some Christians. That’s a wash.) I’m hoping you know now that your religion isn’t unique that way. How does that affect your view of it?
Be sure to bring some fresh quotes from that bible of yours. It will keep you from actually having to think about the subject.
And we will all be reminded of how subsistence, nomadic, uneducated tribesmen over 2000 years ago thought we should live. All transmitted over the speed-of-light 2013 Internet. What an anachronistic image that conveys. :rolleyes:
Any given ones you specified? No. But I’m able to name people who go back to an ancestor who fought at the Battle of Hastings, and fought on the winning side. And from there, I can trace relatives back quite a way farther than that. But what’s your point, eh?
Still, I’m going to die without descendants, because I didn’t have any kids, and almost certainly never will. Why should I feel bad that no-one will remember me after (rough estimate) 2 generations. Why do you think I should care that I will be forgotten 2 weeks (or 2 generations. Same thing, just as irrelevant to me) after I’m put into the ground. Your legacy seems to matter to you. Tell me why mine should matter to me.
In fact, after that last post, I think you need to read things by people who aren’t religious figures. How about this one: [Fridolin von Senger und Etterlin](Fridolin von Senger und Etterlin), who was a very devout Christian, but also was one of Hitler’s best generals. He ran into a big test of his faith at the Battle of Monte Cassino. He wrote about it in his book: von Senger und Etterlin, Fridolin (1963). Neither fear nor hope: the wartime career of general Frido von Senger und Etterlin, defender of Cassino. translated from the German by George Malcolm. London: Macdonald.
He ran into a test of his faith you wouldn’t believe. And came through it with his faith intact. You really should read things other than just the Bible. Don’t limit yourself.
Reason 1. No evidence = no God
Reason 2. Massive guilt and shame, “God is like Daddy. Daddy whipped me with his belt for looking at that neighbor boy.”
It’s usually one of these.
The “virgin” business lets me demonstrate something about logical thinking.
Now, I assume you accept that Isaiah does not say virgin. I certainly accept that Matthew does.
We can construct two chains of events to explain it.
First, let’s assume that the author of Matthew is inspired. Despite being inspired, he writes a story saying that Jesus fulfilled a prophecy that actually didn’t exist. And it was a major part of the story, not an incident like riding into Jerusalem on an ass. And one you can’t claim Jesus arranged to fulfill a prophecy.
So, either God while inspiring the author of Matthew forgot what he really said, or Matthew was inspired, but added to the inspired part to make a good story based on his reading of a mistranslation. In either case what is in the Bible is wrong, and in either case God lets lies out.
Here is the second possibility. The author of Matthew wanted to write about Jesus, wanted to claim Jesus as the Messiah, and searching for something to make the story sexier, used that. It was common at the time to add to the stories of heroes. Hell, Parson Weems, writing only a few years after Washington died, made up the cherry tree and the dollar across the Potomac story, which people my age believed in as kids.
See how much simpler the second possibility is?
I can guess your response:
Rule 1: Matthew is telling the truth
Rule 2: If Matthew is caught telling a porkie, see Rule 1.
The Mormons claimed that Joseph Smith translated hieroglyphics on a scroll. Back then no one knew how to read it, or certainly no one in upstate New York. The scrolls have been found, and actually translated, and have nothing to do with Smith’s translation. Will you give them a pass on this? If not, why give Matthew a pass, just because he lived longer ago?
Threads like this are one reason I don’t believe in God. I’m not being flippant; I got tired of reading threads in GD where I would shake my head at the arguments of my fellow believers.
Timo, I hope you read what I have to say here. This is long, but I think you’ll find it interesting. It’s also very personal. I’ve mentioned many of these things in other threads, but I don’t think I’ve ever spelled out my whole story like this. I hope it won’t be wasted.
I used to be a believer. I didn’t start out that way. I was an atheist growing up. Not a non-committed cultural Christian who didn’t take church seriously, I was an honest-to-goodness, self-identified atheist raised by an atheist father and an agnostic mother. In college, I had some powerful spiritual experiences that I identified as the presence of the Holy Spirit or of Christ. (Fellow atheists will no doubt ask why this was, if I wasn’t really a cultural Christian. The answer is that I didn’t at first–I began by exploring Buddhism, but converted to Christianity after a number of experiences, beginning with one in which I felt a strong sense of a divine presence when I visited a Catholic church in Haiti and took Communion out of a misguided sense of politeness.) I had deep doubts about the supernatural, but I followed the advice you’ve given here: I wanted to experience more of what I had felt, and decided that there would be no harm in “trying on” Christian belief. I prayed, I went to church, I read the Bible, I was baptized in a lake by a good friend who was a Methodist minister, with family and friends in attendance (even my atheist father and agnostic mother, who were amazingly open-minded and supportive).
Obviously by that point, I had found myself doing more than “trying on” Christianity. I really believed. I bracketed aside questions of epistemology and metaphysics, told myself that as long as I acknowledged that problems with Christian theology existed, that I could be intellectually honest and rational while avoiding wrestling with the answers. I told myself that smarter people than I were Christians and if neither I nor my fellow Christians on the Straight Dope could answer these questions, surely someone could.
After getting a Bachelor’s degree in Religion, I went to seminary to get a Master’s degree in Theology. I intended to become a Christian minister. I felt the love of God, and I wanted to help others experience it as I had, without the need to give up reason or rationality, but simply by giving oneself over in an act of faith. Then two things happened.
I found, as I read the greatest theologians from Augustine to Bonhoeffer and Bart, that although they used more sophisticated language and described more nuanced beliefs, their arguments were ultimately the same ones I’d shaken my head at when I read them on the Dope. They fell back on the same excuses, too, about the mystery of the divine and the confidence that God has the answers we don’t.
At the same time, I found that I didn’t believe any more. As mysteriously and ineffably as the knowledge of God’s presence had once come to me, it left. Just like Yllaria and Quicksilver, I suddenly knew, with profound certainty, that death was final, and that there was no loving, omnipotent power watching over us. Of course, I knew that that sudden feeling, that inner conviction that seemed to come both from something outside myself and yet from deep within, was no reason to give up my faith. What evidence was a feeling for whether or not God existed? It could be God testing me, or Satan tempting me, or–more likely, I admitted–a perfectly normal aspect of human life that didn’t mean anything, just a random thought that happened to come at a time of contemplation, when I was feeling suggestible.
Of course, as I prayed for God to help my unbelief (Mark 9:24), and as I waited with patience and humility for the presence of the Holy Spirit, I gradually began to wonder why that exact same feeling had seemed so important when it told me God DID exist. Any why would feeling that way again restore my belief, if I had just admitted that a deep inner feeling doesn’t mean anything? So I kept praying, and being open to the Holy Spirit, and I read theology and spoke with my professors and pastors and friends. And like I said, I found that they had no better arguments or answers that you, Timo have. So both inner feeling and logic led me to the same conclusion, that God does not exist.
I did, however, get an answer to the question “What is the harm in trying to believe?” The harm was that I wasted a decade of my life and tens of thousands of dollars educating myself for a career I never entered. I live in poverty and think about the career I could have had if I’d gone to graduate school in Psychology or if I’d majored in Business. About how many more people I could have helped with those skills than with a knowledge of the Bible. About how much more meaningful my life could be if I’d devoted myself to something real.
Not uncommon is a reaction against organized religion. It must undermine the faith, for some people, seeing really rotten practitioners of faith. Fred Phelps may have converted thousands away from Christianity. “If that’s a Christian, I want no part of it.”
Amen, brother.
Especially since it’s all wish fulfillment. Just look at all the arguments for Christianity we see in this thread alone that amount to “I really like the idea”, “don’t you want it to be true”, etc. That wish fulfillment aspect lose a lot of its effectiveness when the god in question is supposed to hate you and wants you to suffer.
Timo, thanks for sticking around and debating. This is an interesting and so far fairly good-natured thread considering the subject matter.
Could you perhaps explain to me why, in your opinion, I need God in my life? You’ve mentioned joy, peace, love etc etc that comes with “seeing the light”. Well I have plenty of joy in my life. I love my family. I live a peaceful and pretty blameless life. I try to help other people and treat them with respect. I feel wonder at the beauty of existence. I certainly don’t feel tempted by Satan to commit terrible and heinous crimes against my fellow man.
So what exactly do I need saving from? How would my life be better if I started praying to God? Or is it just that unless I do so then my happy and inoffensive life on Earth will have been for nothing and I deserve eternal damnation for not doing my worshipping chores? If that is the case then it sounds like a pretty crappy deal to me.
That’s a hell of a thing, Alan Smithee. Thanks for sharing your story.
This pretty much describes my thoughts. I lead a damned good life, I’m pretty spoiled. I don’t murder or rob or prey on small children, I help others whenever I can because it makes me happy to do so. I think Religion, for the most part, is a crock and I’ve never believed in God, not since I was old enough to reason and learned that Santa Clause isn’t real either. I find the historical aspect of Jesus interesting, and I would love to know if he was one unbelievably charismatic and energetic person, or if the Bible Jesus is actually a compilation of several people.
When shitty things happen to good people I’m not comforted by statements like “in God’s hands” and “God has a plan”. When my mother got cancer she turned back to the church (she was raised Catholic) and I hope it gave her solace, but I find it easier to deal with tragedy just knowing that shit happens, and it happens no matter what sort of person you are. The good get hammered along with the bad, it’s just Nature and The Way Things Are.
My minister is an agnostic with a PhD in Divinity from Yale. She is a great philosopher, a compassionate counselor, and a wise head of our congregation. I grew up Catholic and had a succession of frankly lackluster priests (I had ONE really good priest as a kid), it doesn’t seem to me that belief is what makes a good minister.
At that, I’d like to hear why a Jew needs – y’know, not just God, but also Jesus in his life; plenty of Jews at the time didn’t figure the guy had anything of value to offer, and were content to keep praying to their deity easy as treating the occasional false prophet like shit; why should this day be any different?
Have you not read the book of Joshua? It’s basically one story after another of the ancient Israelites attacking Canaanite cities without provocation and killing everyone there, except for virgins a given soldier might find attractive enough to force into marriage – that is, to rape.
Or consider the story of the Amalekites in I Samuel. They were at peace with Israel during King Saul’s time, and yet God, through his prophet Samuel, ordered Saul to invade and annihilate them, because their ANCESTORS had harassed the ancestors of the Israelites during the latter’s migration to Canaan. For this ancient crime which no living Amalekite had any part, God ordered them all killed, down to the baby born yesterday.
The God of the Old Testament is a villain.
You don’t Know he is true, you believe it, if you knew you could prove it. there is a big divide between knowing and believing.
Timo:
Another thing for you to consider. Your question really wasn’t “Why don’t people believe in God?”
You are asking why more people do not agree with your ideas of what God is and what to do about it. You need to examine your preconceptions and prejudices before you can begin to understand a different viewpoint.
It makes this whole subject is a bit more complicated.
Timo, why would a good, just, loving, and merciful God order the extermination of the Amalekites–down to the newborn babies–for their ancestors’ crimes?