Life is complicated. Anyone who tells you differently is trying to sell you something.
Well, that’s progress.
Seriously, that’s a big step towards growing up.
This question was directed at Dorjän, but I’d like to get back to it.
I have felt the Holy Spirit, at least what I thought was the Holy Spirit. When I was seventeen like you, I was very religious and couldn’t imagine someone not believing in this God that was so apparent to me.
So if I felt this feeling you’re talking about, why did I stop believing in God?
I realized that this feeling is a normal part of being human - our brains do wonky things. Feelings of ecstasy, of having someone near you, of deep emotion, are all just things that our brains can do in the right situations. Religions do a lot of what they do, precisely because they put people in a state where those brain tricks happen.
Did you ever see people talking in tongues? They’re not faking (not all of the anyway), but the church service has put them in a situation where that can just happen. I assume that you don’t think that what they’re doing is really God allowing them to talk in some unknown language - but they would attribute those things to God, and consider it to be their proof of the existence of this Holy Spirit. But you can see it’s just a brain trick, right?
People here have been asking you about believers in other religions who have the same feelings as you, but I don’t think you’ve paused to appreciate the question. If they have the same feelings as you, but are getting it from a version of God that’s incompatible with your belief, doesn’t that tell you that the feeling can come about without a God’s intervention?
And if it can come about without a God’s intervention, why would you consider your own feelings like that to be evidence for the actual existence of the God you believe in?
Biggest one thus far in this thread.
Good on ya,** Timo**.
I think the sort of empathy and perspective required to look at the world without putting yourself at the center of it, is difficult for a 17 year old. At least it’s been difficult for,** Timo**. Though now is the time for him to start realizing that there is a world out there that doesn’t consider him or his thoughts and opinions in any context. It’s tempting, in the face of such an indifferent universe, to want to create a personal relationship with a god in the hopes of making sense of it all. But once he realizes that his ideas about god are no more special or personal or unique than anyone else’s ideas about god (including those of god’s non-existence), his special snowflake status will melt and he’ll have to cope with reality. Or he can continue to believe in something, but perhaps with a much more informed perspective than simply clutching to clipped bible verses like flosam as he drifts through life.
I think this altered state of being is a big part of the reason why religion is so successful. I used to go to a evangelical church and saw people I personally knew as normal rational people loose control of themselves during service. Through the singing, the powerful and emotion invoking words of the minister and the group atmosphere of wanting to belong people start to get their minds pretty wrapped up into it. I could actually ‘feel’ how people might interpret this experience as what they wanted it to be - real evidence of their connection to god.
After growing up indoctrinated I was trying hard to understand more aspects of Christianity at the time, but this whole woo show just made me more skeptical.
You can go two ways with this.
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There may very well be a God(s), but obviously many possible manifestations of God(s). Enjoy the religion that presents God(s) in the manner that fits you best, whether due to culture, upbringing, personal preference, whatever. Just realize that religion is a HUMAN invention, an attempt to explain/categorize the divine. And being human, all religions will be replete with inconsistencies and errors. Don’t be arrogant and think your particular religion is the one true path. You have no more evidence to support that than any of the hundreds of others. Yes, having that viewpoint may very well go against the doctrine of the religion you have embraced. You will then have to make a decision as to how you are going to handle that.
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It’s all bunk, completely created by humans. There is no God. Other people may need the trappings of religion to fulfill something in their lives, but you get along just fine without any of it.
The important part about either conclusion? Don’t annoy your fellow man about it.
Yes it’s exactly like love. And people in love are blind. People in love don’t see obvious things that all their friends can see. Have you ever had a friend who was in love with someone and allowed their partner to walk all over them while you’ve looked on in disbelief? Millions of abused women (and men) defend their abuser because of love. Love is blind.
And religious parents make their children love God from a very young age. I’d put it to you that many religious people are as blinded as the abused wife. The difference is the religious person may experience joy rather than suffering.
But what about truth?
And what about the suffering that dogma has caused for thousands of years across the world?
It’s all because love blinds you. And it’s love for something that doesn’t exist. What a waste.
Tru dat.
How come that’s not in any Christian gospel? (… or is it, and it’s roundly ignored?)
“Do unto others as you would have them do unto you”
its in the gospel - its even words of Christ.
But Christains don’t readily realize the application to self - they don’t want to hear about other religions, but that wont stop them telling others about theirs.
Yeah, what Quicksilver said, thanks for sharing. I think it’s exceptional/outstanding that you were willing to lead others to feel the same faith you once had, something to aspire to- however, you did more than I am because I’m currently not going to study anything religious this coming Fall. I feel that this is a warning though, which is definitely something to keep in mind. In fact, I think I’m currently going through the same thought processes as you are like “I told myself that smarter people than I were Christians and if neither I nor my fellow Christians on the Straight Dope could answer these questions, surely someone could.” Who knows, I don’t what your experience felt like where you wrote “I had some powerful spiritual experiences that I identified as the presence of the Holy Spirit or of Christ”, maybe it’s the same, maybe it’s not (not to try to look down on your experience, but it’s the other possible, maybe slight, option). We won’t ever know.
I have yet to read anything from Augustine to Bonhoeffer to Bart, yet possibly maybe what they say aren’t excuses. Maybe, as cruel as this may sound, and I wouldn’t know why either, but maybe it was meant to be that way. That maybe God would do this, so that we would solely rely on the Holy Spirit, that we would solely rely on Jesus, that Jesus is the only way to get to God (Just in case as reference, John 14:6). Maybe that is the reason God has the answers we don’t.
In terms of “Of course, I knew that that sudden feeling, that inner conviction that seemed to come both from something outside myself and yet from deep within, was no reason to give up my faith.” Haha, honestly, I also felt some doubt while on this thread. But the experiences that I had, I don’t think I can push that aside and call it just any normal human experience, as it may seem to others and reasonably so. Haha, I actually had to stop right here and play on the guitar “You Are More” by Hillsong, to remind me of why I love God- check it out if you’re curious.
“Of course, as I prayed for God to help my unbelief (Mark 9:24), and as I waited with patience and humility for the presence of the Holy Spirit” - Wow, that’s deep, especially the verse that you leaned on during your troubles. I honestly don’t know what to say about that.
“I gradually began to wonder why that exact same feeling had seemed so important when it told me God DID exist. Any why would feeling that way again restore my belief, if I had just admitted that a deep inner feeling doesn’t mean anything? So I kept praying, and being open to the Holy Spirit, and I read theology and spoke with my professors and pastors and friends.”- I see what you mean. I’ve had that thought. Like what if this was all a fluke? Why would a human experience, while believing in God, actually be of God? But I dunno, life seemed more meaningless without Him, yeah and I guess you could also say that I only believe in Him because it helps me. In truth, yeah, it does help me. God’s my comfort. But I think that, as some may say that they don’t care, if they die, they die, God’s still not real, if by chance, you (and I’m only using ‘you’ because wording it differently would be a hassle) had the mercy of lying on your death bed, and not by any other fatal accident, would you really feel content? Or maybe I would risk in also writing, would you lie there with the possible thought running through your head that this is the last chance to make up your mind. That something may be nudging you to just say out loud that God is real, that Jesus is the Son of God, that He is the Messiah (Which I still need to figure out haha, didn’t forget that). I think that I would say that on my death bed if I didn’t believe prior to. Which is why, if I believe that I’m going to say it then, I might as well say it now. No point in avoiding it. You may say that you won’t ever utter those words. But actually being in that situation, it becomes more personal and a thought to not dismiss quickly. After all, once you take your last breath, it’s over.
While I’m also starting to understand, through this thread, that understanding and testing the Bible is imperative to decide whether God is true. To use logic and reasoning. Like what the pastors, professors, friends have said. We might just not know all that is to know about whether God may be true. So it is a risk. But then, it’s a choice that has to be made, whether now, or later, if God is real or not.
“I did, however, get an answer to the question “What is the harm in trying to believe?” The harm was that I wasted a decade of my life and tens of thousands of dollars educating myself for a career I never entered. I live in poverty and think about the career I could have had if I’d gone to graduate school in Psychology or if I’d majored in Business. About how many more people I could have helped with those skills than with a knowledge of the Bible. About how much more meaningful my life could be if I’d devoted myself to something real.”
Hmmmm, think about it this way. I wouldn’t say wasted…I’d say invested. You did more than I have. You were willing to dedicate your life for what you believed. You’re suffering now for what you believed in. Suffering is awesome in a sense haha…(Romans 8:18 and John 16:33, this last verse might be irrelevant, but nevertheless, comforting Romans 5:3-5)
If you ever have that chance to think about it before you die, maybe think it in this sense. I invested the first half, or quarter, or third, of my life already to God, I think I’d like to gain **eternal **treasures in Heaven. Money or what you consider treasures are not eternal, it’s temporary. Your job is not eternal, it’s temporary. Your life isn’t eternal, it’s temporary. Your joy is not eternal on earth, it’s temporary. I think we can all agree on that regardless if you believe in God or not. But treasure in Heaven is eternal. Life in Heaven is eternal. Whatever you do in Heaven, is eternal.
I really appreciate your post. Hopefully this response can help. I, again, would like to say that you might be warning me, which is really kind and generous, to not take the same path as you chose. But I believe what I have felt. I believe that God is real. And maybe that might be disappointing to you, but just know, it wouldn’t be your fault. I’ve made my choice. You did your part.
I’d also like to add, as maybe an example and not a comparison, that I know of a man who attends my church, who went and graduated from Harvard, gave up his life for God. Gave up the riches he could have gained on earth. Gave up the fame in his career in science for God. He is still strong in the Lord, he has a children and a wife who attend church.
Excellent! That is the first step to enlightenment.
Well said (as with all your other posts).
I fall on the agnostic, #1 side of what Dorjan describes, and although I’m not sure I can call myself exclusively “Christian” anymore, something I was thinking that Timo might benefit from checking out is the Unfundamentalist Christians group on Facebook-- specifically their “What We Believe” page.
My emphasis added:
Timo, the positions above have had a great deal more time, critical thought, and serious meditation put into them than you have put into your own religious beliefs, or that most of the other/adult Christians you meet have put into theirs. In your case: you’re 17! You’re young! This is a hard thing to wrap your head around, and you are showing very promising signs of being open-minded so far. But if you want to do it right when it comes to treating all your fellow human beings with compassion and respect (specifically in terms of #3 and #9 above) you have to put in the effort to think about this, even if it means changing your mind.
I agree, I’m going to have to look into this guy.
But you also must remind yourself, don’t judge God based off of people.
Yes haha, I know, what the heck? “Why can’t I judge God by the people who follow Him?”
Because those people who may be corrupt, as you already know, and you’re not even a believer, are not for God. They are for themselves, using God’s name for their own glory and love for worldly things. Now, I can’t say that’s all of them, sorry if that brought the word prejudice to your mind, but some are. And those are the people that I try to avoid.
Powerful and misleading. Using such confidence in God’s name, and yet not of God.
How can you tell a Christian from another? You already did. You wrote “If that’s a Christian, I want no part of it.” But it isn’t. That isn’t a Christian. And God already warned us about that. ( 1 John 4:1) He tells us not to believe everyone who says they’re from God. (1 John 4:1-6 ) He says to test them. And if they are not from God but falsely say they are, (Matthew 7:21) just because they say they are, and just because they call upon the name of the Lord, doesn’t mean they will go into Heaven.
Now that’s not to say that all “true” Christians are flawless, are perfect. No. We are all sinful. We all sin. We all make mistakes. We may yell or lose our anger. We may have the temptation to lie. So you ask…then what’s the difference?
The difference is that you don’t rely on other people to judge God for we are all sinful. You rely on God. You can also rely on Jesus who came down as a human and was sinless. Just keep in mind, that everyone, including Christians, are sinful. So just tell them that if they judge you, haha.
Oh, and I’m also adding, the difference is that you will be more willing to change. To be a better person.
Now, I don’t know what he did, but from reasoning, think about it. If your conscience says something about it, something that can help decide what is good or bad, I can just assume that he’s doing something bad.
Maybe I’m wrong…haha…
I also don’t want to say that Fred Phelps is a bad guy and evil…he still loves, he’s still kind, I’m assuming… Hold on… let me google him.
Okay, nevermind. You don’t thank God for shooting someone…
Also, might I add, his anger against homosexuals are ridiculous.
He sins just as much (Romans 2, read like the bottom half of Romans 1 starting from verse 18)
**By the way, I’m only saying these things about him because if he’s for God, he should know better. ** (James 3:1-2)
Yeah, so as you can see, I can’t judge either. Doesn’t mean I can’t be sad about it. I need to remind myself that maybe he’s also a victim of maybe being misled. Who knows. God still loves him. Just like He still loves all of us.
I’d like to add that I find it interesting that you can tell a “Holy” man to be actually bad, and that is why you don’t follow those kinds of people. Which is good, you shouldn’t be.
It just gave me the insight that we can all tell (obviously) right from wrong. But I always thought, “crap, there’s another false prophet and he’s going to gather a lot of followers because of his eloquence and confidence and because people don’t know about false prophets they will assume that he’s of God”.
But there are those, like you, who turn away.
And, at least to me, I think that’s a mercy of God, or what you guys may call, morality or common sense, haha.
Why would the Holy Spirit present itself in different ways to different people? And in insufficiently convincing degrees? Why is it so hard to “earn” salvation?
Sounds like bribery, or at least bargaining rather than true love.
I think it was a deep, honest, and possibly painful story for Alan Smithee to share and I appreciate his story as well. However, I don’t think he meant it as a warning to you specifically. Rather, it was just a truthful sharing of experience and knowledge. You probably shouldn’t have viewed it as just another argument to rebut; it came off as a bit self-centered.
Why did he have to give up his riches, fame, and success for God?
Okay, I agree. I’d be willing to learn more about other religions to test my faith, like I said before in previous posts. But being able to hold on to that faith while doing so is not a fault. Maybe by holding unto it while learning about others, the faith that I have will naturally go away. Not because I forced it, but because it just happened. Don’t you think that’ll speak more and have more of an impact?
What I’d say about not annoying fellow man about it. It may annoy you, but what if it helps others? Does that mean that I can’t physically walk to another person on the streets for fear of annoyance? What if I thought so, and that person was actually looking for it or wanted to hear? How will the gospel be spread?
yes, okay, maybe on this website nobody wants to hear or read. That’s fine. I can leave.
You’ve missed the point -
Why should learning about other religions, philosophy, etc be a “test” of your faith? Why is knowledge dangerous?
True. I’m sure it can show itself differently to others. We’re all different. Like how a children may need different teaching styles in school. It’s not about why it’s so hard to “earn” salvation, but it’s hard to hold on. It’s hard to continue when tested. Maybe he was tested more harshly than I.
I didn’t view it off as an argument but as a suggestion. I don’t force you guys to agree when I type. It’s just an matter of opinion and option to agree or disagree.
I was trying to help. Maybe help ease or lighten his pain of regret a bit. Even if he doesn’t agree, it’s still a suggestion. I’m sorry if it may have insulted his reasonings to post though. But if it helped him in anyway, then I’d say that it was worth the risk. What you hear doesn’t always have to be agreed upon.
Yeah, I can now see how it came off as self-centered when I said it was a warning. Sorry.
Oh I see what you’re asking.
Because as someone pointed out.
Knowing is different than believing.
I can’t show you that God is real, so I don’t know.
But I believe.
So if what you guys say is true, that God isn’t real. That religions are all the same. Then that’s a risk for me. That’s a risk that I need to take. To test what I believe in.
Does that help? I hope it makes sense.
A “test?” Having your faith “go away” because you learn how others express their faith?
Oh no, my young friend. You learn how others approach God to deepen your relationship with Him, not to destroy it. Your faith is not simply the details of your religion; religion is a man-made construction to help guide you to God.