While I can’t help but feel that you’ve had me on ‘ignore’ for the entirety of this thread, I’d just like to once again point out that plenty of people believe (a) God is real, and (b) Christianity is false. Which is to say, that not all religions are the same.
Hmm, interesting. Never thought of it that way.
But, and please don’t get frustrated with me, maybe this upcoming thought is stupid.
But my thinking is can’t only one faith be true? Because they all contradict in some way. Doesn’t matter how big the contradiction. If one belief says this, and the other that, then only one can be right. (let’s put aside the belief to have no faith)
I think I understand what you’re saying when you say religion is a man-made construction. And I agree, assuming I understand.
But what if I were to learn the Jewish ways? They don’t believe in Jesus as the Messiah. Isn’t that a contradiction? What should I do then? Would you still call that a man-made idea? A religion?
What if I learn a belief that there is more than one God? Doesn’t that contradict my faith? my belief? What would I do then? Is that not a test to my belief? Is that still a man-made idea? Which one is the man-made idea: The belief in one God, or the belief in many?
I don’t know, again, don’t get mad or frustrated if I misunderstood. Please have the patience to explain again.
no - it doesnt make sense - until I realize that you have been taught to be afraid of knowledge and that you actively believe that there is a ‘satan’ out there whose sole purpose is to decieve you thru ‘tests’ (or is it god testing ?).
THIS is why religion (all) is bad - it clouds your ability to think objectively - it causes you to live in fear of the unknown.
The bible you use is FULL of contradictions and falsehoods - yet you seem comfortable with that. Understanding why the Jews do not accept Jesus will help you to understand thier viewpoint - you are still free to accept/decide that they were/are ‘wrong’.
Last edit - you cannot decide if one contradiction outwieghs a different viewpoint until you have a better grasp of them.
That’s a mighty big thing to put aside when addressing people that don’t believe in gods, but o.k. It is still possible that none of the religions out there are correct.
Oh, sorry. I wasn’t trying to ignore you.
okay, yeah I think I understand the
a) God is real
b) Christianity is false
Is it similar to the man-made religion. Does Christianity fall into that?
I mean…as long as you believe that God is real, I’d totally be fine with that.
But…my question is, does that include Jesus?
If I asked you if you believed in Jesus, would that mean you would fall into the Christianity category? and that you would no longer be part of the letter ‘a’ category above.
Is it that you don’t like affiliating yourself with those who call themselves Christians so you separate yourself by saying you believe in God?
Very true, it is still possible. But if none of the religions are correct, then nothing would happen after death. People who believed in all the possible religions would never know.
Maybe like…a waste of their one time on earth…
but then also maybe, better than taking a chance. It’s definitely a matter of opinion though.
Well, what if you do “learn the Jewish ways” and decide that they are right, and that Yeshua bar Yusef was just an itinerant preacher whose followers became fanatics and gained political power in the Roman Empire. So? You would have all the traditions of the Covenant YHWH made with Abraham and his descendants. You would then know that you are one of the Chosen People. Aside from you now believing that you had wasted a few years in incorrect beliefs and practices, how would that make your life different?
Do you think that God is so petty as to punish you for making a mistake or for living as you were raised?
You keep talking about taking a chance. That’s not how nonbelievers look at it. We’re not risking anything.
If you sincerely learn about other faiths, and find yourself drawn to a different faith or even a different flavor of Christianity, that’s fine. If you find that you still prefer your faith and style of worship, that’s fine too. You are still stuck in the mindset that one is probably right, meaning all the others must be wrong. You have not yet grasped the concept of no religion being more right or more wrong than the other.
There is a quote attributed to St. Francis of Assisi - “Spread the Gospel. If necessary, use words”. As a Christian, you can show your faith by living your life as an example to Christ. Your behavior, actions, and works are your Gospel. If someone is looking for the Gospel and wants to hear it, trust me, they will notice your actions and come to you. You don’t have to actively proselytize and evangelize and insult/annoy 100 people on the off chance that 1 person actually wants to hear it. They will come to you. After all, God provides, right?
There’s a famous quote (mis)attributed to Marcus Aurelius:
“Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.”
Whether or not Aurelius really said anything like this, I think it’s a reasonable approach. So far I’ve been unable to distinguish the various religions from each other as to which is more likely to be “true”. But from my understanding of how the world works, and how to be a good and just person, then there is no possible way a just God could punish someone simply for not believing in him. Just and good beings don’t require worship and adoration, and certainly don’t punish those who don’t worship and/or adore them. That’s what supervillains and megalomaniacs do. It’s hard for me to imagine an omnipotent Kim-Jong-Il doing anything worse than some of the things many Christians say that God has done (chiefly, punishing people in fire for eternity because they didn’t believe in/worship him).
And even if you do look at it that way, look at all the chances you run away from by not looking into other beliefs. What you’ve done is akin to having your first taste of ice cream, seeing how marvelous it tastes…then declaring that the first flavor you tasted was the best flavor in the world and you have no need to taste any others.
Timo,
Honest Question. What is your goal as a Christian? What is your real motivation? Is it to be “right”? is it a fear of possibly not enjoying the “riches of heaven for all eternity?” A fear of going to “Hell”? Or were you so inspired by the life of Jesus Christ as told by the Gospels that you desire to emulate him in your own life, to help the poor and the sick, and be a beacon of hope? Be honest, are your deep motivations selfish/greed or something more altruistic?
An honest account of your motivation as a Christian will go a long way to helping you understand a lot of the things we are trying to get across to you.
Have you ever heard the story about the six blind men and the elephant? It originally came from India, and one telling of it goes like this:
Now imagine that each one of those blind men gathers a group of followers of other blind men, and preaches to them about the Real Truth about the Elephant as he “sees” it. Some of those followers even go so far as to fight among one another about whose belief is “correct”, each of them completely secure in the knowledge that he has the One and Only Truth and Everybody Else is Completely Wrong.
But in reality, no one is entirely right or entirely wrong. Even if we call one of those groups of blind men “Christians”, that group has no more monopoly on the truth about God (or whatever is out there) than any other group out there. They are all man-made attempts to understand something that is so much bigger than humans that there is no way we can ever understand the whole truth about it. Even Paul alludes to God’s being like this in 1 Corinthians 13:12, when he says that, “now we see things imperfectly, like puzzling reflections in a mirror”.
The same sage quoted above goes on to say explicitly:
There is one thing, and one thing only that all gods have in common:Followers.
Now, this may be a little advanced for you, but consider this. What church (temple, mosque, sacred grove) a person goes to does not have any bearing on whether they are a good person. There have been good people and absolute pricks in every religion. I know you have already set up a “No True Scotsman” argument in this thread by saying that bad people who profess to be Christians are not True Christians, but you need to extend this thought.
Good people in India who were raised Hindu are just as “good” as good people in the US who were raised Christian. Same with bad people. Same with Shinto people in Japan, or atheists in Norway. There are people in this world who do everything they can to make this a better place for everyone and there are others who are selfish and try to hurt others. The distribution of good and bad is pretty independent of what religion they follow. Really.
Now, it occurred to me several years ago that “good” people, the folks who try their best to help others, are doing God’s work regardless of their religion or lack thereof. As far as I can see, any God who wants my respect will recognize “good” people from whatever cultural background they happened to be born to.
I cannot tell whether any given religion is more objectively pleasing to God than another, but I can tell if the followers of a given religion are pricks. Also, as God, defined as the intelligence which initiated and maintains this universe, must be “larger” than a human mind can comprehend, then any named deity (Jesus, YHWH, Vishnu, Zeus, whatever) can only be a reflection of a limited aspect of the Godhood. I believe that people get the deity they ask for, and so if you pray to a vengeful and wrathful God, then God will be petty and capricious right back at you. Expect more humanity from your deity and the world will be a better place.
If your reasons for following a particular religion were more than to get into heaven/paradise/nirvana/etc, and you lived your life in good account and helped your fellow man, then how was it a waste of your time on Earth?
Oh haha, good point. Whoops.
Good one
If different parts of the bible can contradict each other (yet still be true), then maybe different religions can contradict each other (yet still be true).