While do a cycling session at the Olympic Oval here in Calgary, I was watching some of the speed skaters go round and round on the ice. These are the ones with the long blades that are hinged at one point. I got to thinking about their aerodynamics when they are skating with both arms folded behind their backs.
I postulated that it would be more aerodynamic if the skaters used a position closer to that of a downhill skier with both arms tucked in front of the face. The reason I believe this is more aero is because bringing the arms in front of the face into a tuck decreases the frontal area because of the rotated shoulders and not having your arms by the side. It would also divert some of the air to the side that would hit the abdomen and groin area.
Has anyone ever tested the effectiveness of a skier’s tuck while speed skating in the distance events?
Yeah, when you’re in a skiing tuck, you are essentially crouching still as you shoot down the mountain, and you want your center of gravity in front of your feet so you can control your skis. But if you’re going to be pushing off, you need some weight to put into that kick.
I don’t think this is true. Stand in front of a mirror and rotate your shoulders forward, and see how much your shoulder width changes. Not much. Also, when you lean forward and tuck your arms forward, your upper arm is close to vertical. Most of it is in front of the torso, but not all.
Experimenting in front of the mirror a bit more, it seems the minimum frontal area is achieved when the arms are stretched forward or backward (i.e. horizontal).
Because they’re carrying poles. Putting your hands in front allows you to carry the poles in an aerodynamic manner.
Because they use their arms for balance. Having your hands in front allows you to more quickly move your arm outward for balance. Hands in back is a poor position for this. They also use poles for balance, and it would be hopelessly awkward with hands in back.
Hate to appeal to authority, but I’d find it hard to believe that Olympic-level coaches haven’t tried everything possible. There’s got to be a reason they all use more or less the same stance.
Qualification/disclaimer - Several family members speedskated for several years, and tho I froze my ass off for countless hours in countless rinks - even announcing several meets - I managed to remain blissfully ignorant of much having to do with the sport. I’ve know several folks associated with several olympic teams over the years, and bet I’ve had some of the folks you saw skating/coaching over at my house.
The speedskating movement is very unnatural. It takes considerable effort for most new skaters to get able to get low enough, while still delivering sufficient push with their legs. Note the freakishly huge thighs. I realize that skiers have/require tremendous leg strength as well, but the nature and rhythm of their movements is quite different from a skater’s.
Speedskaters swing one or both of their arms while starting, finishing, in turns, and for shorter races. For the longer races, a huge component is conserving energy. My guess is that the hands-on-back posture has been found to permit the greatest leg push, while being comfortable and conserving energy, in combination with the best attainable aerodynamics. I’d bet that it has been determined that any efforts to adjust posture to increase aerodynamics, would detract from the power, comfort, and endurance.
Also, although I managed to remain ignorant of the nuts and bolts, hearing skategeeks natter on endlessly about various minutiae, I am very confident that every conceivable aspect of their posture and aerodynamics has been tested at length. Skating is HUGE business in Europe. The “hinged” skates - clapskates - you refer to were a relatively recent development, and quite controversial when they came out, tho now the standard. The skates and skins (outfits) are designed for optimal aerodynamics - it seems unlikely to me that every speedskater around would have failed to experiment with various alternative postures.
Just saying, there have been a whole bunch of people spending a whole bunch of effort and money for a whole bunch of decades looking for any conceivable advantage they can gain.
I don’t think anybody is arguing that point. But the question remains, is the skater’s posture more aerodynamic, or is it less aerodynamic but nevertheless used because other benefits make up for the aerodynamic disadvantage?
Athletes without a compelling reason to have hands in front seem to use hands in back. The ski jumper is a good model, they don’t have to push off, they don’t have to use poles, they just have to get down the ramp with the highest speed possible, they use hands in back.
Skiers are the ones taking an aerodynamic hit, because other factors (poles, rough terrain) make hands in back unacceptable.
Does anyone have video or drag numbers for a speed skater in a wind tunnel? I would like to see actual drag numbers so I can see how much of a difference it would make. At the speeds speed skaters travel at, a small reduction in frontal area can have a big effect.
Talked briefly about this with my wife. She responded that the specific position skaters assumed is very aerodynamic, and furthermore, observed that they only put their hands on their back when they are “resting.”
Not your wind-tunnel stats, just anecdotal opinion from one person who spent way too much time in the cold going fast and turning left.
Keep in mind that like running, an arm swing keeps you more balanced as you push out. It sort of keeps your body from twisting. Also, in skating, it feels like it’s giving you something to push against almost.
There are basically 3 things to do with your arms.
Swing them both. You primarily do this when you’re starting/accelerating and putting out max power. You want them both swinging so that you can push with max power and maintain balance.
Swing one, and keep one tucked. One arm can balance pushes to both sides. It swings out to one side on one push, and in front of the body on the other push. You do this at, say, a comfortable racing level of intensity. It’s enough to balance the skater without being too much. It probably saves some energy over two arms. Why swing two when you only need one.
Swing none. So, swinging none is typically when you’re “coasting” or resting. Some long tracker do it in very long events as it saves energy and you’re not putting out so much power that you need an arm swing. Short trackers (or inliners) will do it when they’re in a pace-line.
All that said. . .the reason I’ve always thought that you keep your arms behind your back, as opposed to in front when you’re not swinging, is balance of the torso. When you’re skating, you want your center of gravity over the blade (from the side and front).
Look at this. Notice how their big asses and thighs balance their torsos and heads. Having your arms out in front would necessitate raising your torso at a steeper angle to stay in balance.
As a matter of fact, sometimes when we do drills to practice getting low, I’ll sink my butt down so low that I need to put my hands in front of me to balance, but it would throw me out of whack to have them there in a normal skating position.
Other than that, it’s just kind of weird. It seems unnatural. I’m only on my feet now, but I can’t imagine trying to skate like that. I can walk around with my hands clasped behind my back, but it’s sort of weird to walk around with them clasped in front of me.
I know you’re kind of kidding, but oddly enough, the skating position does seem somewhat natural. I mean, in an athletically natural kind of way.
If you look at that picture I linked, there’s a guy in the background standing upright, still balanced.
If you try going fast from that position, you’re just pushing out from your hip. To really load your thighs, you need to get low. Some beginners “get low” by keeping their legs like the guy in red, and just bending at the waist. You can’t keep weight over your blades doing that.
ETA: Nor can you keep weight over your blades by just bending the legs, and keeping the torso upright.
But, as you bend your legs to get your thighs more horizontal, your ass goes backwards, and your torso has to come down to balance. From that balanced position, the hands go more naturally to the back.
It actually is kind of logical.
I think a lot of things in sport seem unnatural until you gain some proclivity, and then you think, “oh, that’s why they do it like that”.
