Why Globalization and Democracy sucks

Couple of things to unpack. The first is the nature of morality. Morality can be both objective and situational. That’s the first thing that we have to acknowledge. If we define morality as making the ‘best’ decision however we choose to define it (As Methodists, we would probably define it as the action that most pleases God, but we don’t have to use that definition), then it becomes clear that situations certainly enter into it. Let me explain. I think that most of us would agree that grabbing someone without their permission and throwing them to the ground is an immoral act. We’re violating their bodily autonomy and hurting them in the process. If though, they are about to step on a land mine and that is the most effective way to save them, most of us would probably say that we performed a very moral act. Despite the fact that the action is identical, the situation changes the moral value of the action. This does not mean that those actions do not have true moral weight or are open to debate. In each case, there is a morally correct path, but the situation changes what that morally correct path is. Once we wrap our heads around that fairly simple concept, we can see why culture matters. Culture is a situation. Culture changes the morality of a given action. For instance, let’s pretend for a moment that God is real and that following other gods is immoral. If I were living in say 8th century Ireland and was celebrating Halloween, I would be doing so in the context of a culture that views that as worship of various harvest gods (possibly, let’s not argue about the roots of Halloween and just pretend that this is so.) This would violate our earlier premise of not following other gods. Even if I were Christian and just play acting, I’m encouraging others within that cultural context to worship harvest gods, so it would ostensibly be an immoral act. On the other hand, in 21st century America, celebrating Halloween is simply dressing up and getting candy. There is no implied worship of other gods and I might even go so far as to say that NOT celebrating it is hurting others who may be forced to feel guilt over nothing more than a sweet tradition among neighbors and friends. The action is the same, but the cultural context changes the situation and thus the morality of the action. This does not mean that there is not an objective morally correct thing to do in each case, merely that each case though superficially similar is actually quite different. It would completely be expected that for a given decision that takes place in 2nd millennium BC Israel and 2nd millennium AD America there are different actions that would correspond to the ‘best’ action. This is in our view extremely Biblical and what our forebears believed about God. The Circumcision Controversy is one of the earliest examples of this that recognized that different cultural contexts produce very different moral actions, but those actions are still judged against an objective standard for that time and place and set of circumstances.

Now that we’re over that hump, we can speak to the church as moral authority. The long and the short is that the United Methodist Church does not claim to have an absolute moral authority. It never did. The name ‘Methodists’ refers to the fact that we use a ‘Method’ that we hope brings us closer to God. It doesn’t claim to have all of the answers and we fully recognize that other churches have different methods and different answers that may be just as valid or even more so than our own. We are simply one expression of Christianity that attempts to discover God. We might be wrong and we recognize that-we’re just people and people make mistakes. We have social principles, but we can amend those if we feel they were in error. There is no penalty for members who violate them since we don’t all have to agree that they are correct. They are simply what the majority of United Methodists believe at a given time. Maybe we were wrong in the past or maybe we’re wrong now. It’s only our current best thinking. This doesn’t mean that we don’t think that there IS a correct answer, merely that we must approach things with the humility that we might be wrong about that answer. We completely recognize that a vote doesn’t actually change the mind of God and so it’s ludicrous to pretend that the United Methodist Church via vote can somehow change the morality of an action. In this particular case, Homosexual acts either are or are not part of God’s plan and a vote by 850 people in St. Louis doesn’t change that. It merely affirms what a majority of us believe (Actually there is more to it than that. If it were just a vote about our social principles, people probably wouldn’t care. It changes disciplinary actions. As a general rule, we’re not a very disciplinary church and making this particular issue a disciplinary issue is quite frankly revolting to most of us and why it might be unconstitutional-I’ll get to church governance next. I promise.) So this is only to say that we don’t pretend to be an absolute moral authority, we only say that we try our best and where we’re wrong we rely on the unmerited grace of God to forgive us for our errors. We generally try to base our social principles on loving God and loving others rather than on some sort of Ten Commandments-like list of do’s and don’t’s.

So church governance and unconstitutionality. What this proposal did was essentially say that pastors that are gay get booted out of the church and anyone that performs a gay marriage gets suspended for the first infraction and kicked out for the second. That’s really the sticking point. As I said way earlier, in the social principles(our moral guidebook as it were) homosexuality has been deemed incompatible with the church since the Sexual Revolution when all of the old people started clutching their pearls. As I’ve also said earlier in this post, we’re mostly free to ignore the social principles if we don’t like them, so we do. We have gay clergy and a gay bishop and have been marrying gay people off and on for awhile now. What this proposal is doing though is basically doubling down and kicking those people out. This is really, really unsettling because as a general rule, we DON’T kick people out. That’s not who we are. Clergy get kicked out for only extremely egregious actions like diddling little kids or blatantly stealing from the church and half the time embezzlement only gets them a warning to do better and a watchdog to keep an eye on them. Certainly we don’t get kicked out for kissing a girl and liking it. This gets us to the current proposal. It is singling out one particular violation of the social principles and punishing it. The United Methodists have a foundational document that we call our ‘Constitution’ (same as the US) That Constitution has a list of rules for governance just like in the US government. Proposals can not violate that Constitution without changing the Constitution (same as US). Since this proposal singles out a certain class of people, that violates what might be called the equivalent of our 14th amendment. We have a non-discrimination amendment in our Constitution and this rule seems to actively target certain people for discrimination. Unless they want to amend the Constitution which is basically impossible - no way that they’re going to be able to hold together an African bloc to vote to legalize discrimination (they have long been the primary beneficiaries of that clause since when there are US workplace laws that benefit Americans, they must also benefit Africans even though the laws may not apply in Africa, we can’t give paid leave to American pastors and not African ones as an example-not that we would not want to do so, but the non-discrimination clause requires it), that means that the Judicial Council can overturn the proposal and we’re back to square one.

Suppose the church judicial council strikes down the Traditional Plan as unconstitutional. That would give the liberals a year of time to lobby the African+Asian factions before the next vote happens again (rinsing and repeating the whole thing again, basically), but the pro-gay-marriage faction would also be weakened because there are some liberals who would defect and leave the UMC anyway between now and then (even though the issue wasn’t finally settled yet) - is that how it works?

It seems likely. There is also the possibility that if the Judicial Council strikes down the Traditional Plan that the conservatives leave en mass.

Possibly. The fact though that it’s so geographically divided makes this unlikely. The number of delegates for 2020 is already set although we don’t know exactly who they will be. So individual conferences will be able to elect delegates and theoretically an en masse leaving of liberals could mean that those delegates become more conservative, but the geographical isolation of those conservative enclaves means that it would probably be around the edges. The US outside of the south and portions of the midwest is so much in favor of inclusion that even with a mass exodus of liberals, the few that remain will still outvote conservatives in most conferences. You might see some edges like Oklahoma where a more divided delegation becomes solidly conservative, but California is never going to send an exclusionist. Longterm is where it becomes problematic because the delegates get recalculated, so California would lose delegates in 2024 if its churches shrunk.

If conservatives leave, we would likely get a reprieve for a short time after 2024, but the demographics aren’t lying. Africans aren’t leaving regardless of our stance and they are the church of the future, so we really just have a structural problem.

Here’s a bit of a fun fact though for the day. In an effort to bring the proposal up to Constitutional muster, Traditionalists took out language specifically targeting homosexuals and instead put in broad language like ‘Must uphold the Book of Discipline.’ United Methodists as a whole have been dominated by liberals for the past 20 years or so. That means that our social principles tend to be very progressive. One of those is for instance, we (both clergy and members) must endeavor to reduce our carbon footprint as much as possible and affirm that global warming is real and man-made and an affront to God’s creation. We also oppose the weaponization of space. Where this could come into play is that many of these anti-gay Americans in the WCA are on the right side of the political spectrum. It may provide an avenue for us to suspend them or even remove them from the clergy for for instance saying that they support Trump’s ‘Space Force’ or driving an SUV when a Prius would suffice.

Africa is not a bastion of progressive thought, to say the least.
Western culture is superior, just a fact.

I wouldn’t say that. It’s merely different. It’s the product of different forces that have interacted with it. There is much to learn from African culture (with the caveat that there is no such thing as African culture, rather it is many cultures that happen to be geographically close to one another-still I think that many of them share a few defining characteristics.) I think that the community structures are far stronger than in the west. I think that broadly speaking, they see things in a much more connected manner than the west with (again broadly speaking) a greater realization that the actions of the individual are not self-contained and have broader impact upon the world. I think there’s also a tendency for them to view the physical world as much less important than Westerners do. As part of this, I think that there is a much stronger emphasis on the relational nature of reality as opposed to the solid physical nature of reality. I think that these are all things that they do much better than we do. Of course, there are things that they do much worse, LGBTQ rights being one of those.

senoy, I want to sympathize with you, but you’re starting to confuse me. You say your church is not a moral authority, but you’re upset about their doing something you think is clearly immoral. You have “social principles” but you then say your upset when your church wants to enforce one of them (and indeed, stop looking the other way when their ordained representatives clearly and publicly violate them.) But you seem to be rubbing your hands in glee over the prospect to suspend or remove conservatives who don’t support other sections of your Book of Principles.

As if tit-for-tat is anything near the “method” Christ wants you to use to get closer to God.

Whereas if YOU leave and the conservatives stay, the church of the future won’t even have a “structural problem.”

It’s really a simple question. Do you think your church’s stated position, which has been in place for years, and just this week affirmed by a vote of a conference called to discuss exactly that issue, is immoral? You don’t need to wait for your church judicial council or 2020 conference to decide that.

If so, I’m sure there are other denominations whose principles more closely match yours. Perhaps you and your friends who share your feelings should consider joining one of those other denominations. A quick search shows you’re already in full communion with the ELCA, the Moravians, several other Methodist organizations and just recently, the Episcopalians. If you don’t care for them, your congregation and others who agree with you could form your own organization without dragging your fight through the judicial council and the 2020 conference.

I think we have a deep seated desire to not leave things that mean a lot to us, and rather fight for change within whatever organization that is (whether it be a church denomination or country or whatever). At some point, yeah, you may have to leave. But I think we are wired to exhaust all possibilities before we do so. Because it’s quite a bit painful to do so.

For clarity, I don’t actually want conservatives kicked out of the church. I do want to see the law have unintended consequences that serve to expose its hypocrisy and get it overturned.

As for your other point. The church is not the moral authority in the sense that it does not dictate morality, but that doesn’t mean that morality doesn’t exist. I certainly believe that things are moral or immoral. I do not believe that everything the church deems moral is moral, nor that which it deems immoral is immoral. It’s merely a human institution with all of the flaws that that entails. As such, enforcing what is potentially a flawed morality is offensive, particularly when it is a targeted morality only aimed at one group of people. I believe it to be immoral and 2/3 of the American church agrees with me. The job of the church is not to be an Inquisitorial Agency rooting out iniquity. There are certainly churches that feel that they should be, but traditionally, we have not been one of those.

You are certainly correct. Absolutely nothing about this debate in my mind is particularly pleasing to God.

One mans problem is another’s opportunity, but I would posit that if the moderates and liberals in the US leave, there will cease to be an American Church. It will be a stub church with largely older geographically isolated congregations that will be too liberal to compete with Evangelicals and too conservative to compete with mainlines. Whether or not that is a problem is really in the eye of the beholder. Conservatives have already made their position clear in that in the words of one of their supporters ‘They would rather have a tiny church of God-fearing believers than a large church of sinners.’ This is not a typically United Methodist statement and is much more like something you would hear from Evangelical churches.

Yes, it is immoral. It is probably not the only position I find immoral that the church holds.

This position is a minor issue within a much broader and acceptable denomination. It’s one that for some reason culture warriors have gotten extremely hung up on. I have disagreements I’m sure with Moravians and theological issues with ELCA and unbridgeable gaps with Episcopalians. I am not those things and my differences with them are more than my differences with the UMC. It seems to me the thing to do is work to change those differences in the UMC rather than attempt to go to someone else’s church and try to change the differences I have with them. An analogy. Let’s pretend that I’m a red-blooded 'Mercan and love everything about it. Let’s say that I disagreed with something, we’ll say ‘Citizens United’ Should my response be to move to Canada and try to turn Canada into ‘the US without Citizens United’ or would it make more sense to try and change Citizens United? The answer to me seems pretty clear.

Ironically, there’s a thread in Great Debates right now about how this opinion is Liberal PC gone mad.

Who are “your” people? Apparently not Africans or Americans who have a different opinion than you. What “sucks” is it their views or them? It seemed very clear in your earlier posts that it was the people who suck. Hopefully, you have calmed down and repented of your earlier feelings.

Have you tried talking to them about Jesus?
Seriously though, have you considered another denomination? It sounds like Quakers would be more your jam. Your oatmeal, whatever.

Or Unitarians?

You could create your own damn church with like-minded people.

Latest update: The UMC Judiciary Council largely upheld the Traditional Plan, and also allowed the liberal local congregations to secede if they desired, *and keep the church property. *

That is considerably generous. I seem to recall that in the past, conservatives who split off of liberal congregations over the gay-issue dispute were not allowed to take the church’s property with them.

The secession was part of the plan put forward by traditionalists. They have wanted to secede for a long time and were blocked, so one of their big issues was a way to get out. Realistically, we are almost completely assured of a split. The Western jurisdiction has already said that they aren’t going to abide by the plan as well as a number of conferences in the Northeast. Multiple colleges have withdrawn their affiliation from the church. The real question is who gets to keep the name and logo. There’s also a significant financial penalty. The progressive churches tend to be larger and wealthier especially outside the south, so if they secede, you have all of these retirement obligations that have to be paid and the likely stub conservatives will not have the money to do it. There’s a real (though not probable) chance that 3/4 of the American church will secede and leave predominantly rural and small congregations as the group officially in charge of meeting all of those obligations. (I think it will probably be closer to 1/2, but who knows.) I think they recognize that they can’t do it. In addition, roughly 95% of the budget for the global church is paid by Americans. If 3/4 of the American church leaves to found a Reconciling Methodist Church, then the stub church simply will not be able to continue funding the global church. It’s a real pickle.

So, if I want to get some investors together to buy some cheap real estate to turn into a gay sex club, now would be a good time?

I know which performers to have on first: https://www.thesisters.org/