Why Guns?

As long as you’re demanding cites, David B, the following web page has a collection of statistics from several Chicago-area cities that enacted bans or other restrictions.

http://user.mc.net/~chevelle/handgunbans.htm

(Evanston’s was particularly touching to me, BTW, because the father of some kid who was murdered there by a gang member came to support the gun ban in Park Ridge at the final city council hearing on the matter – he kinda failed to mention that his son was murdered several years after the Evanston handgun ban was enacted :rolleyes:, so it’s not like the ban did him a h*ll of a lot of good there.)

*Evanston, Illinois

Evanston, another Chicago suburb, banned handguns in mid-1982, requiring crime trend comparisons to begin with 1981, the year prior to the ordinance taking
effect. In the short term (1981-1983) Evanston’s robbery rate rose 8% following imposition of the ban, while nationwide suburban areas experienced a 20% decline,
and the U.S. total rate declined 16%. Through 1994, the most recent data available from the FBI, Evanston’s robbery rate has risen 17% since the ban, while the
U.S. robbery rate has declined 5%.*

With things as they currently are, yes, I believe that it would be nigh impossible for some sort of tyrant to instantly appear, should guns vanish overnight.

But, what about ten years down the road? Twenty? The existence of a strong, armed, and informed populace seems like it’d be a great “vaccination” against any aspiring dictator.

The example of Hitler is used a lot. He didn’t ban guns. The government before him banned guns. I’m not saying that the banning of guns caused Hitler’s rise to power. Far from it, as many factors contributed to Hitler reaching the position that he did. But I’m saying that it’s highly possible that an unarmed populace made his control over Germany, and thusly the Holocaust and World War II in general, a helluva lot easier for him.

We don’t want to make things easy for those who would take away our freedoms. We want to make it as difficult as possible.

Quote Zoff

." A fire extinguisher has no other use than to extinguish fires.

You don’t watch the WWF do you?:smiley:

Collounsbury wrote:

!!

And a .38 special isn’t even much of a kicker! Collounsbury, if a .38 special really is enough to “nearly twist your wrist”, I would strongly recommend you not try the .50 Auto that Desert Eagle makes. :wink:

Or maybe he should… afterwards, the .38 won’t seem nearly as powerful in comparison.

What are you talking about? Haven’t you ever seen “Cops” when they bust open a crack-house? An ordinary citizen armed with a couple of hunting rifles and handguns is no match for a well trained SWAT team armed with submachineguns, flash-bangs, sniper rifles, shotguns, teargas, and covered in body armor. If nothing else, they can just lay seige to your house until you run out of food and water.

If you really get stubborn like those cultists in Waco, the government can always call in the national guard to roll in with tanks, APCs and gunships.

Our freedom is not based on the posibility that the populous can amass enough smallarms to fight off a light infantry brigade. It’s based on the system of checks and balances that keeps any part of the government from gaining too much power.

As for defending ourselves against the government, I wouldn’t worry. Rebels and insurgents have historically seemed to find a way to get their hands on all the rifles, RPGs and other weapons they need. French partisans in WW2, the Viet Cong, Afghan rebels, Serbs and Croatians in the former Yugoslavia,and Chechnians rebels in the former USSR all armed themselves pretty well to fight oppressors. And they didn’t even start off with as many guns as we Americans have!

I hate to break it to you, but you are wrong.

At least, you are half wrong. The Second Amendment is in there in case the other checks and balances break down.

As for your single home Vs. a SWAT team scenario, run the numbers if every 10th home (80 million gun owners) took out one cop or soldier. Pretty soon it becomes obvious that SWAT teams exist only beacause they are targeting criminals and not just suppressing a population.

What about 100,000,000 ordinary citizens, all armed with a hunting rifle or handgun, versus a well-trained SWAT team?

You misunderstand the “protection against tyranny” argument. You’re picturing the classic “army versus army” scene that Hollywood likes to splash all over the place, when in reality you should be picturing an urban warfare environment, where the military can’t distinguish between the enemy and the common citizenry. The only choice in such a situation would be to start mass-destruction of the cities, which would completely undermine the economy, and thusly would destroy any government controlled by a tyrant.

It’s just another form of “mutually-assured destruction”, really… not the best of systems, but I’m sure 5 million Jews back in 1945 would have preferred it to their alternative. And several more million people culled in Russia, and Turkey…

If there is one point in this debate I do not have much respect for, it is the argument that arms owning guarantees freedoms. Sorry, Freedom, but I find this to be a bit of mythology. Please note, all, I am not making an argument about 2nd amendment, ownership etc. Rather this particular point.

First, as another poster has noted, small arms ownership is a ridiculous little match to hold in the face of a modern state’s arsenal. Further, I have read convincing historical analysis in re the idea that the Revolutionary war militias were largely failures, i.e. w/o regular army the americans would have lost. One may make an argument that a populace familiar with arms and trained to an extent a la a militia provides a reservoir of resistance, but this is not necessarily connected with modern amendment nor gun ownership but rather with something like the National Guard. Neither a necessary nor sufficient condition.

(In re Spoofe’s argument see discussion below)

Second, having some personal experience in countries where folks are armed to the teeth with quite unpleasant things, such as RPG rocket launchers etc., and having seen the political cultures extent there, I question the necessary link between gun ownership and liberty, given how very little liberty in a civic sense I found. Mind you, this is not an argument that widespread gun ownership ipso facto creates these conditions, but rather to point to its non-correlation with liberty.

Third, I have to return to the poster Smith’s cogent observation about what truly guarantees liberties, something which I have long observed outside of the question of guns:
(a) Historical experience with liberty, creating a social “soil” for the idea, a delicate plant…
(b) Healthy civic institutions, including the armed forces respect for democratic institutions.
© Lively popular understanding and respect for the democratic process and civil institutions, otherwise a Hitlerian democratic coup is possible. Or
(d) Without © above, popular ownership of guns becomes a means of oppression (in hand with of course the participation of the armed forces.)

Quite frankly, in the fantasy scenario of the American government becoming dictatorial, we have to accept that this is likely to mean that:
(a) condition (b) has failed
(b) the government in question will cease to play by civil liberties rules,
© in which case, so long as it is a “popular” dictatorship a la Hitler --a case in which we see armed versus not armed matters far less than the civic institutions and the people-- it will muster crushing oppressive force. If the Egyptian government can do it, anyone can (the Islamist are indeed armed with some nasty stuff: when I travel certain places, its under armed escort. Fun.)

So, other than the symbolic value, which may given American history be of some importance, I feel it is ludicrous to argue 2nd amendment ownership is a functional protection of liberty. A symbolic one, perhaps important given American political iconography…

So, there you go.

Well, I certainly can’t expect a cheesemaker to understand these things:)

I will concede that there is no cut and dried answer to this question, and there is no real way to cite your arguement either way. After all, we are talking about the POSSIBLE effectiveness of a POSSIBLE future action.

Examples like the Warsaw Ghetto and Afganistan do not come close to aproximating America.

However, suffice it to say that there are a bunch of us who would do our best to prove you wrong if things ever did get that bad.

The biggest hole in your theory that I see, is your assertion that small arms fire is worthless against a well armed army. All you have to do is head on over to the movies this weekend and watch that sniper movie to get a little understanding of what a rifle can do to an army.

The millions of scoped deer rifles spread across the nation are essentially just low-tech sniper rifles. There is no way anyone could protect the supply chain from Americans if a popular revolt happened. Those jets and tanks become pretty ineffective when there is no fuel or spare parts for them.

Plus, I think a big difference between America and other exmples is the raw number of ex-military in America who actually HAVE formal training.

We get all wound-up over the potential of a couple of terrorists in this country, imagine what 100,000 armed and motivated rebels could do.

On second thought…

I just remembered where you were:)

Aspiring cheesemaker only. Real cheesemakers are all-knowing.

I’m basing my assessment on my best analysis of the effects of security forces versus insurgents in situations such as Algeria, Egypt etc. Of course, I only tangentialy touch on the security literature when I have to get a sense of the situation for my own work so I want to be clear that I claim no real expertise.

That being said, it seems to me that:
(a) Given ruthless application of security forces, urban guerrillas can be eradicated. Algerians have proven this.
(b) Given modicum of support from population, or at least acquesance, even unpopular governments with effective security forces can maintain themselves and even prosper. See Algeria and Egypt.

But, let me expand on this as assumptions and premises matter here.

(sniper movie? I may get to see that in a few months…)

Well, here I see a flaw in your analysis.

Let us be clear on our premises, we need to clarify:
(a) Premise: arrival of tyrannical government in America - how and why, further
(i) degree of popular support
(ii) degree of opposition

Your example depends on large-scale popular revolt. I submit that a tyrannical government is most likely to arrive with popular support, rather than without. As such we should suppose a perhaps regionally located degree of support versus opposition.

Doubtful, e.g. Egypt every single male undergoes military training, majority in the army groundforces. I believe Algeria relied on similar scheme. Now, the quality of this training is no doubt low, but then this balence out against the security forces.

All things being equal, the same probably will be true of security forces versus rebels in the USA.

Get themselves eradicated? One has to be clear on the premises in which one is examining the issue.

First, my analysis is based on what I regard as the most likely scenario for the arrival of a tyrannical government:
(a) popular dictatorial coup-d’etat followed by imposition of “law and order” controls
(b) full use of said government of modern
i. security apparatus
ii. information/agit-prop apparatus: terror action/guerrilla action can be turned against those using it with effective propaganda by the state. I pre-suppose foundering of 1st amendment rights.
iii. Support of military and its technology.

As such, the self-same rebels above will face
(a) secret police and related apparatus, including of course SWAT teams to take out isolated elements
(b) counter-insurgents supporting the regime, also inserted in society, e.g. per Algerian strategy, using popular armed groups (importance of agit prop)
© high tech military seek and destroy for larger formations.

As such, I do not see 2nd Amendment style weapons holding as a true guarantee of political liberties. Nor do I see them as anti. I simply view this as irrelevant. The larger socio-political atmosphere, political traditions etc. are the true guarantees. If you get to the point in which these weapons matter, its already too late, IMHO.

This in the context of a domestic coup-d’etat. Overthrow of domestic government by some small cell of course is another issue, however in this case I again see 2nd amendment arms to be irrelevant (although perhaps useful on the agit-prop level insofar as they can undermine security), the real issue will be the armed forces and by extension popular access to military supplies. Military dissidance and leakage from arsenals will be the real sources, although to the extent that 2nd amendment arms have maintained a degree of working familiarity in a given population, I of course admit this is of both relevance and utility.

However, I think that overall 2nd amendment weapons as a realistic bulwark against tyranny is not a very realistic argument, nor really necessary per se. However, I do concede the symbolic value as well as the observation that the entire scenario depends on so many wild variables its impossible to really know.

Collounsbury

I’ll bet if you ask a real cheesmaker he would tell you that the reason the us economy works so well is everything is more or less operated in the open here. Chemical Labs are operated as Chemical labs for instance.

With an armed populace plinking off your workforce it would become a hell.

We are also very widely dispursed, no real concentration of factories that would be easily defendable. And there are a lot of civilian companies supplying government goods.

I don’t believe anyone taking this country could even hope to hold it.

Relevance?

Armed populace is different from workforce? Response by workforce? See my prior posting.

My point in the original posting is that this presuppoes a false seperation between civilian and government.

Again, I clearly noted that I consider the only likely way a “tyrannical” government could come to power is with some degree of popular support a la the hitlerian revolution. Scenarios presupposing an alienated populace are another matter, but I regard them as less likely. I have been trying to comment on at least quasi-realistic premises.

Of course, I regard the whole idea as rather unlikely.

as i’ve said in other gun threads, the notion of american gun owners forming a nationwide, effective, grass roots militia against a corrupt government regime is an nra fantasy (i use the term ‘nra’ to mean those people who oppose any form of gun control and believe the second amendment is as relevant today as it was 200 years ago). look at waco. look at ruby ridge. these are the nra crowd’s poster boys for government overreach, yet what protection did the second amendment offer them? where were gun owners and militias across the country when this stuff was going on? nobody came to their rescue, not even those gun owners who adamantly believed their rights were being violated. if the hardcore, government-hating, automatic weapon-owning crowd can’t scrape together an impromptu militia that can fend off a handful of feds, how the heck can we expect the weekend hunters, skeet shooters, and gangstas to do it?

to me, the most likely militia scenario (still highly unlikely) is that the country will be sharply divided on some political issue and a group of gun owners may decide that they can’t take it anymore and have to fight. but they’d have to fight the the rest of the country’s private gun owners who don’t agree with them as well as some federal military faction. there’s no way, in the context of our society, that the entire civilian population is going to suddenly be oppressed by the federal government. at most, half will feel somewhat oppressed and will just wait until the next election to vote the bad guy out of office. in the meantime they’ll just dig up dirt on his past.

Collounsbury

Quote

Originally posted by justwannano
Collounsbury

I’ll bet if you ask a real cheesmaker he would tell you that the reason the us economy
works so well is everything is more or less operated in the open here. Chemical Labs are
operated as Chemical labs for instance.
Relevance?

Lighten up bunky
its a joke that leads into the rest of my discussion.

Quote

Armed populace is different from workforce? Response by workforce? See my prior
posting.

Of course it is different.See dictionary

Quote
My point in the original posting is that this presuppoes a false seperation between civilian
and government.
Say What??

Quote
Of course, I regard the whole idea as rather unlikely.
I hope you are right but look at this past election.

Boy it gets hard to post a discussion when you can’t access the site . Busy Busy Busy

Sorry it took so long, I’ve been away for a few days.

No, actually, I don’t. If you look closely at what I’ve said, I don’t mention any form of gun control at all in this thread.

First of all, no, I did not say that “just to inflame”. And as far as I can tell, this thread hasn’t produced any other uses for guns other than

  1. killing animals
  2. killing people
  3. “incapacitating” people and
  4. to threaten to do one of the above.

What else do you suggest we use guns for?

Now, I’m really not sure about the gun laws here in Canada, but what I know is that I’ve never seen (that I can recall) a real gun. I don’t know anyone who owns one. I wouldn’t even know where to buy one if I wanted one. And while our government is far from perfect, it is certainly not tyrannical. Britain, also, has banned handguns, and I don’t see tyranny popping up.

Disclaimer, this is written on while pursuing my own alcohol based anti-bilharzia treatment program. Some thought processes may be lost in the process.

Sorry, I’m dense and notably obsessive, so I am told. The joke escapes me, but that’s likely me own damn fault.

Quote

Ah, my dear fellow, please do not attempt to patronize me. I fancy myself a bit too subtle for that. I was suggesting, somewhat obscurely admittedly, that workforce and population can not be readily distinguished insofar as the former is a subset of the latter.

My point was in re presuming an armed population seperate from a workforce “at work” for the man or whatnot. Terrorism directed at the workforce will have political repurcussions which may or may not be positive. We have to add in the factor of state versus opposition agit-prop. Whoever controls the meaning wins.

Simple, insofar as it is most likely --and is my assumption throughout my comments-- that any “American Tyrannical Government” will in fact derive from a collapse of democratic habits and a quasi-popular hitlerian style revolution, a simple distinction between “the guvmit” and the people is false.

Bah, one slightly botched election? I mean really. Frankly, historically speaking it probably wasn’t all that bad --and I don’t even like the results!-- and it’s hardly a sign of the end of the world. I am much more concerned for long term trends and intolerance of other POVs than a modicum of poor infrastructure – as embarrasing as that is.

all the gun owners i know, myself included, use guns as ‘toys’, kind of the way jet skis or bikes can be adult toys. we don’t use guns as tools - we hunt for fun even though we generally eat what we kill. we also like shooting paper targets and clay pigeons. it’s pretty much all for fun. i think the nra crowd prefers to downplay this aspect of gun ownership because it makes their organization seem childish and irresponsible. it seems much more mature and selfless to rally behind a cause in the name of ‘freedom’ then in the name of ‘i like to shoot stuff’. in one of the previous gun threads, it was pointed out by a gun control opponent that the use of guns for personal enjoyment does not justify their legality. as a gun owner, i hope that’s not the case since it seems to me that most gun owners own guns for just that purpose, even the ones who pretend otherwise. unfortunately, it’s those that pretend otherwise that kills the credibility of the rest of the gun owning community.

now i’m not denying that guns are an effective weapon of defense as well, but so are a lot of other tools and toys. i bought my softball bat to play softball, but it’s also my first line of home defense. doesn’t mean i’m going to go around saying i own a bat to protect my freedom. if some group decided bats should be banned, i wouldn’t say ‘but what about our right to protect ourselves?’ i’d get the bat owning community to rally in defense of the ‘right’ to use bats to play softball. and if it turned out that too many bats were being used in crime to justify their continued legality, i would support measures to regulate the distribution of bats so they don’t end up getting totally banned.