Apologies for the multi-post - it seems the hamsters have struck again.
i’m Ms.
just because i don’t like Miss. makes me feel about 5.
and, god willing, should i ever become a surgeon (who are normally known as Mr/Mrs/Miss/Ms and not as Dr) i will be Ms even if i AM married and have taken his name.
because i think that as a title Ms when used by a professional carries more authority than Mrs.
it’s a personal thing, but i think it’s valid.
Curiously, one refinement of the already quite complex conventions about women’s titles used to be that a married woman who continued to practice her profession was often known as “Miss” in professional life. Thus, say, Rita Hayworth was “Miss Hayworth” on the studio and on set, however many times she married.
For all I know, this convention is still observed in certain professions. I don’t know about surgery.
Irishgirl, surgeons in the United States go by “doctor” as well as physicians. Maybe you could start the practice over there.
cdhostage invited comments on other languages, so I’ll chime in.
I grew up in Québec, and the traditional titles for women are Madame and Mademoiselle (Mme. and Mlle.) for married and unmarried women respectively. Over my lifetime, Mlle. has pretty much disappeared. All adult women are Mme. This came about the time that the formerly obligatory name change for women on marriage stopped (and was reversed for all people now living), and now one can not legally change one’s name just because one marries.
I recieve a bit of mail addressed to Mlle, but I think most of it is related to French stock I own. My magazine subscription cards only have options of M. and Mme., as do my banking forms, credit card applications, and all other junk mail I had yesterday. I presume some people still make the distinction, but it’s safe to address any woman as Mme.
In english, I answer to whichever title is used without correction. Miss, Ms., Mrs, doesn’t matter to me unless someone is trying to offend.
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All medical practitioners in Ireland start off as “Dr”. However, once they reach a certain level of seniority (an appointment as a consultant) a distinction emerges. Surgeons become “Mr” or “Ms” or “Mrs” or “Miss” again, while physicians continue to be “Dr” (unless, in either case, they become “Prof”, but that’s another matter).
Because “Mr” or “Ms” or the like is an indicator of seniority and status for surgeons, its use is unlikely to be abandoned.
Just to complicate matters further, dental surgeons and veterinary surgeons are always “Mr” or “Ms” or the like, regardless of seniority.
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What!!?
I find this completely incomprehensible. Why would gender be even the least bit relevant? With babies, gender is completely irrelevant, and I’ve always been astonished at the people who seem not to be able to interact with an infant whose gender they are unsure of. A baby is a baby.
In the business world, gender is also irrelevant. That person selling you insurance–I assure you, their genitals don’t have anything to do with the policy you’re buying. The person ringing you out at the grocery store, the waiter setting your lunch down in front of you, the surgeon taking your appendix out, the lawyer preparing your case for court–their genitals don’t enter into the transaction at all. (Or we’ll hope not, for the sake of sanitation.)
Once you’re at the personal level, gender can be very relevant–sex and reprodution are, of course, matters where gender makes a difference. But it’s not very common to not know the gender of someone you’re planning to have sex with, or have a baby with. And it’s a bit odd, to my mind, to plan on having sex with someone you’ve never met.
Frankly, I don’t see why a genderless form of address would be a problem.
Sorry, I just put that as context. The civil code was updated (in the early '80s, I can look for a date if you’d like), and the provision where married women’s family names became those of their husbands was removed.
When the civil code was changed, it was as if the name changes had never happened. I can’t give a reason other than consistency. One can’t change one’s name in Québec unless one’s name is very difficult to spell or likely to be ridiculed, or in the case of an adoption. The government at the time didn’t see why marriage should be a special case.
Of course, as long as you’re not doing it to decieve someone, you can still sign your name whatever you want.
If nothing else, because the personal pronouns in English are gendered. Suppose I’m scheduled to meet with “Frank Smith” at his office. I go to his office, and ask the receptionist “I’m looking for Frank Smith. Is he available?”. Now suppose that I’m supposed to meet Robin Jones. I ask the receptionist “I’m looking for Robin Jones. Is he in?”. Meanwhile, Robin hears me from the next room, and depending on her mood, she’s either upset or amused.
Of course, one might argue that we ought to have unisex personal pronouns. But realistically, that’s not something that’s going to happen any time soon.
Not quite.
From World Wide Words:
Have you got a cite for that? Because I’ve got several that say that it is neither an abbreviation of mistress nor was it from the turn of last century, starting with The Merriam-Webster Dictionary that says:
Main Entry: Ms.
Pronunciation: 'miz
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural Mss. or Mses. /'mi-z&z/
Etymology: probably blend of Miss and Mrs.
Date: 1949
(my bolding)
Well, somebody had to call it…
BAND NAME!!!