I sure that the police do have photographs of Zimmerman. Maybe they will be next in weeks leak. 
Zimmerman apparently didn’t get a lawyer until weeks later and based on what the lawyer said, he hasn’t even met Zimmerman.
I assumed we were talking about a fight the person getting shot started. Of course you don’t have the right to shoot someone because they are defending themselves.
Funny that the point of aim when hunting is the chest, entirely because that’s where the heart and lungs are.
How long do you think you’d live without an aorta?
CMC fnord!
I’m thinking that Martin was a lot heavier than 140 lbs. That doesn’t sound right for 6’3" and he doesn’t look that skinny in the picture in the picture with the gold teeth.
And we don’t know who started the fight from the information currently out there. Even if the part of Zimmerman’s story where he says Martin “came back” is true, that doesn’t mean that the rest of it is true- or that Martin started the fight. That’s mainly what I’m saying- we don’t know who started the fight, we don’t know exactly what happened during the fight, and we don’t know the exact circumstances when Martin was shot.
Where is the picture with the gold teeth? Was this one of the Stormfront pictures- supposedly of Martin, but they turned out to be pictures of others selected to look more threatening?
And what if both of them think they’re defending themselves?
True. It’s entirely a supposition. But as Fotheringay-Phipps sez “*You and others who make this and similar points are all mistaken. The point is that there is a lot we don’t know, and we’re guessing about that. And the character of the people involved can sway the odds.
How likely is it that TM would jump GZ and slam his head into the ground?
If he’s some angelic school kid, very unlikely. If he’s a guy with a history of burglary, vandalism, and drug use, then much more likely.”*
Now, legally? Well, Bricker is the expert here, I agree. But if this gets to the GJ, one or more of them may make this supposition. And, it’s something that Zimmerman may say: “It looked to me like the kid was trying windows or casing the units”.
And may his credibility be called into question or does the Florida statute require us to take him at his word? For example, if that were the case, why wouldn’t he have said so while speaking to the 911 dispatcher?
There’s no clear cut line between burglers and people who commit crimes of violence. I would agree with you if we were talking about tax evasion. But I’ll bet people with histories of burglary are far far more likely to attack people who they think are stalking them (or whatever) than average.
No, I don’t want to say that he “DID, absolutely”. I say that he probably did.
We’re not in the jury box here, and this is all speculation. In that context, this type of background info is highly relevant, and your claim that it has absolutely no bearing in completely incorrect.
[Equally relevant are the prior charges - ultimately dropped - against GZ for an altercation with a police officer, IIRC.]
Martin said that got the jewelry from a “friend”. That sounds like receiving stolen goods. The school sent the jewelry to the police. The fact that the police don’t bother to pursue larceny cases doesn’t imply anything about Martin’s guilt or innocence, but common sense suggest that 17 year old boys don’t walk around with a bunch of woman’s jewelry that they can’t explain. It isn’t proof of a felony, but it does suggest that his mother was lying about her son’s background.
Good points. In fact he may well now be changing his story due to leaks in the case.
Not only were those charges dropped, but they were expunged. This is a process that requires a finding by a judge (at least in my state) that the arrest was a manifest injustice. It’s not simply a case of, “Oh we couldn’t prove the charges.” To expunge a record, you have to prove that the charge should never have been brought, that it was a manifest injustice.
In light of that, how can you count it again Zimmerman?
And with Martin, the same question applies. He was never even charged! How can you rely on anything about that story, when he never had the slightest chance to confront the witnesses against him and test the truth of the accusation?
You’re right when you say this is all speculation.
So why do it?
Why can’t you simply sit back and wait for the full report? Why must you craft a story with Martin as the villain?
You make some good points, Bricker.
You don’t see the problem here? A suggests B. B suggests C. C suggests D.
But that doesn’t mean that A suggests D. There’s no transitive property of inference. Each succeeding ad hoc inference weakens the chain. It sounds like stolen goods. It’s not proof of a felony. Therefore, he’s more likely to have assaulted Zimmerman?
No. You cannot pile ad hoc assumption upon ad hoc assumption with validity.
I wasn’t aware that it had been expunged.
[FWIW, I’m pretty sure you’re wrong about what’s needed to have a record expunged. I’m not a legal expert, but I did closely follow the story of a former president of the Society of Actuaries whose expunged record of conviction for a violent crime was revealed, and I don’t think the initial charges were alleged to be a manifest injustice. But I’m not inclined to argue this point.]
There are a lot of things that are true without people being charged for them. Based on my experience in life, it’s possible that the whole burglary thing was some sort of misunderstanding, but it’s more likely that he was guilty but that based on the lack of hard evidence and the fact that he was being disciplined at the time for other things, no one bothered to prosecute for it.
90% of this thread is all speculation, and yet, it’s over 40 pages. What’s the point of it? It’s an interesting discussion, that’s all.
What do you think the point is?
See above.
I made a map showing where Zimmerman likely parked his truck. It is based on Zimmerman’s phone call to police and this CNN video.
If Martin starts running from near the mailboxes, it is about 0.2 miles by road to his house. If he starts running from the crosswalk on the east side of that stretch of Twin Trees and takes the sidewalk all the way to the back door of the house, it is as little as 200 yards.
Zimmerman says Martin starts running at the 2:07 mark. The call ends at the 4:11 mark.
Like all of the deer I’ve hunted, long enough to take a few steps.
Good choice:
I wish I knew. I entered this thread to decry people who were posting how certain Zimmerman’s guilt was. Along the way, I have also taken to task people who are pointing out how certain Martin’s guilt is. I have no idea why people feel compelled to announce, with confidence, conclusions that they cannot possibly know to be true.
That isn’t at all clear.
A major point here is that Martin did not know why he was being followed. He didn’t have enough information to know how likely a conflict would be if he asked Zimmerman why he was following him. He was almost certainly scared, yes. But I’ve been scared before, faced my fear, and found it had a reasonable explanation. Zimmerman could have had a decent reason for following him.
Zimmerman, on the other hand, was intentionally following a suspected messed up criminal while armed, and reasonably must have known he was unnecessarily creating a dangerous situation in which someone could be killed.
Only one of the two knew for a fact he was creating a dangerous situation.
Also, Martin was being followed by a truck at first, and could have gotten off the road to wait for it to be safe. That could be why he didn’t get home. From what I can tell, Zimmerman claims that he got out of his truck to check a street sign. If that was near where Martin was, I could see him asking “why are you following me?” On the other hand, if the body was NOT found near the truck, it calls into question Zimmerman’s story.