Why hasn't the Neighborhood Watch shooter been arrested?

[TonySinclair]

@JoelUpchurch

I think Angela Corey did an excellent job with the press conference.

I can’t fault her on her handling of the case, but I got a bit tired of her saying how wonderful she and her team were.

[Boyo_Jim]

@JoelUpchurch

I think Angela Corey did an excellent job with the press conference.

I agree. She managed to make all her points very clearly without a single word of criticism of any of the police or prosecutors who preceded her on the case, and without even commenting on the merits (or lack of them) in the SYG law.

[Gangster_Octopus]

Now that Zimmerman is arrested and charged I think we can all agree is definitely guilty!

[Boyo_Jim]

Shall we settle on a date for the execution? I think June executions are the most romantic.

[Fear_Itself]

@treis

shrug People die from punches. And how am I supposed to know you are going to be happy just punching me once, and won’t end up stomping my head into the ground? It’s easy to sit on the sidelines and judge. But when you are the one in the fight, you aren’t thinking very clearly. My opinion is that we should give these victims the benefit of the doubt.

And this is the problem with this law; the fear of death may be present only in the mind of the shooter. Good luck proving that to a judge, who has to approve the immunity at a hearing before Zimmerman can be excused from prosecution. It will be interesting to see what evidence Zimmerman presents to prove his life was in danger, because there is none in the public conversation at this time.

@treis

Shrug It just gives the impression of a political decision to me. Like I said, I’m leaving room for facts I don’t know, but there’s no way with what we know that Zimmerman is guilty of 2nd degree murder. If that is the charge in front of a judge, it should be dismissed.

Isn’t it likely that the judge will have significantly more evidence at his disposal than we do? I think dismissal before trial is a very unlikely prospect.

One more thing: “Shrug” is not a very persuasive argument. I suggest you find something a little more compelling.

[monstro]

@Martin_Hyde

I have to hope at least you can concede Angela Corey based her decision to prosecute on a lot more than the scant information we had on this case when you started this thread.

Since I don’t know what information she has received, I can’t say this at all. She may be operating on a totally different set of facts or the exact same ones.

Seems like I remember, wayyyy back in the early days of this thread, that you said you wouldn’t have seen a huge problem in arresting Zimmerman from the beginning. Am I just imagining that? If I’m not, what were you basing that opinion on if not the same feeling that I and others had?

Sorry, but I’m not chastened by your remarks. All the people out on the interwebs who seem disappointed by the prosecutor’s decision–they are the ones who need to be scolded for jumping to conclusions. My whole position has been that there has been ample doubt to justify an arrest and Zimmerman should have to justify his actions in the court of law. It’s the least he can do for taking a life. If I have to do this when fighting a traffic ticket, he should have to do this for killing someone (yes, I understand the constraints of that horrible law…and that is a part of the world that doesn’t make sense to me).

I have never once said that that Zimmerman is guilty. But there are plenty of people who seem to have already judged Zimmerman as an innocent man based on an incompete set of facts, who have broken their backs linking a hoodie and regular teenage mischief to a deserved death sentence. That’s crazier than crazy.

I’m not surprised that I’m the one who gets singled out for finger-waggling, though.

[Boyo_Jim]

My latest minor learning experience. I’m watching the family’s press conference on MSNBC, and just saw that it was streaming here. For some reason I expected a streaming video to be “slower” than a live TV feed, but in fact the streaming video is about a second ahead of the TV feed.

[TonySinclair]

@treis

Unless some fantastic new fact comes to life, she doesn’t have a prayer proving that Zimmerman had a “depraved mind regardless of human life”.

That seems like a VERY high bar, even for first degree murder. It’s the kind of thing I associate with Manson, or Jack the Ripper. I wouldn’t use those terms for, say, someone who murdered her husband because he cheated on her.

[Boyo_Jim]

@monstro

Since I don’t know what information she has received, I can’t say this at all. She may be operating on a totally different set of facts or the exact same ones…

How can you possibly believe this? We know for a fact that Zimmerman made a statement to the police, only a small fraction of which has been leaked. We know for a fact she has access to the complete witness statements which have been collected, which are also not available to us. She has access to photographs. She has access to a medical examiner’s report. She has access to the complete police and EMT reports, most of which we don’t.

[monstro]

@Boyo_Jim

How can you possibly believe this? We know for a fact that Zimmerman made a statement to the police, only a small fraction of which has been leaked. We know for a fact she has access to the complete witness statements which have been collected, which are also not available to us. She has access to photographs. She has access to a medical examiner’s report. She has access to the complete police and EMT reports, most of which we don’t.

Mea culpa.

[Boyo_Jim]

@TonySinclair

That seems like a VERY high bar, even for first degree murder. It’s the kind of thing I associate with Manson, or Jack the Ripper. I wouldn’t use those terms for, say, someone who murdered her husband because he cheated on her.

No. See the definition I quoted in post #3700. It sounds more, um… depraved, than the actual definition suggests.

[BlankSlate]

@treis

I think this is an unrealistic standard. It requires someone under attack, and who has just been punched to evaluate his danger in real time, while continuing to be attacked. To use the example of this case, is Zimmerman supposed to sit there and say, ok he’s punched me and start counting the times Martin slams his head into the ground? 1… 2… 3… ok, now I can use leathal force! No. It’s a unrealistic standard. If someone is being assaulted, they are the victim, and I am going to give them broad latitude to defend themselves.

If they use disproportionate force, well, then they made a mistake. But they didn’t create the situation. The person that assaulted them did. So I’m perfectly comfortable with these outcomes. If you punch someone and they shoot you in self-defense, all I have to say to you is “don’t punch people”.

shrug People die from punches. And how am I supposed to know you are going to be happy just punching me once, and won’t end up stomping my head into the ground? It’s easy to sit on the sidelines and judge. But when you are the one in the fight, you aren’t thinking very clearly. My opinion is that we should give these victims the benefit of the doubt.

I have (thankfully) limited experience being on the receiving end of an unprovoked assault. I do understand how fast these things happen. There is almost no time for rational thought. I can honestly say that if I was armed I would have shot that guy that night. In a rage and not with a cool assessment of whether or not I faced great great bodily harm or death. As it was I got pretty banged up but it would have been worse if others didn’t pull the guy off me.

I guess in my perfect world guns would be phasers set to stun.

[TonySinclair]

@Boyo_Jim

Here is the relevant definition (according to the FSU law school) of the elements of 2nd degree murder, including the “depraved mind” part:

An act is “imminently dangerous to another and demonstrating a depraved mind” if it is an act or series of acts that:

1. a person of ordinary judgment would know is reasonably certain to kill or do serious bodily injury to another, and
2. is done from ill will, hatred, spite, or an evil intent, and
3. is of such a nature that the act itself indicates an indifference to human life.

It seems the most different element to prove would be the second, and I think Zimmerman’s comments during the 911 call might be key to that.

I disagree. I think it should be relatively easy to establish beyond a reasonable doubt that someone had ill will toward someone else.

I have no idea how you would establish indifference to human life for anyone but a serial killer. Assuming, of course, that #3 is intended to be more than a mere restatement of #1.

[Daylate]

The Florida prosecuter just gave a press conference. Zimmerman is in custody, and is being charged with 2nd degree murder.

[steronz]

So, since the answer to the thread title is “He has,” should we close this thread now?

[BlankSlate]

I was shocked she chose 2nd degree murder. I kept expecting her to segue into an explanation of manslaughter or negligent homicide. I figured there had to be a reason that Detective Serino didn’t believe Zimmerman’s version and I’m even more surprised that it didn’t leak. It has to be something compelling to merit the charge.

So what next? Bail? Is his family wealthy enough and/or will his supporters pony up? He can never be put in a general population, either pre-trial in jail or, if convicted, in prison.

[Boyo_Jim]

@TonySinclair

I disagree. I think it should be relatively easy to establish beyond a reasonable doubt that someone had ill will toward someone else.

I have no idea how you would establish indifference to human life for anyone but a serial killer. Assuming, of course, that #3 is intended to be more than a mere restatement of #1.

Looking back to the definition of 2nd degree murder (post #3694), it seems to me that the highest hurdle to overcome is proving “the unlawful killing of a human being”. I’m guessing that the defense will try to stop the prosecution right there – that the killing was legal because it was a justified use of self-defense.

I would think that, if you’ve already demonstrated it was illegal, and if you have already established ill will, that the very act of shooting a kid in the chest is evidence of indifference to the life of the victim.

I also think there are months and months of guilty shameful entertainment ahead for all of us.

[Fear_Itself]

@BlankSlate

So what next? Bail? Is his family wealthy enough and/or will his supporters pony up?

Oh hell yeah, there will be tons of money donated by Team Zimmerman.

[Boyo_Jim]

Zimmerman already has a new attorney who is giving a press conference right now on MSNBC

[DiosaBellissima]

@Fear_Itself

Oh hell yeah, there will be tons of money donated by Team Zimmerman.

He set himself up a website that takes Paypal and if you Google, there are posts on a lot of pro gun boards saying they kicked him some money.

And yes, it’s really his site.