Why hasn't the Neighborhood Watch shooter been arrested?

[PatriotX]

@treis

Yes. This is the only prayer the prosecutor has. Her only hope is to use circumstantial evidence and innuendo to get the jury to assume that Zimmerman started the altercation, because there is no direct evidence to show that he did.

You have examined the totality of the evidence available to her and were thus able to rule out what is not in her files?

[treis]

@you_with_the_face

What if no wounds are noted in the EMT report? No broken nose or signs of a beaten head?

To me that would be pretty compelling evidence that “who started it” is a moot point. Any altercation that doesn’t result in any signficant injuries is not an altercation that justifies shooting someone dead.

That seems very unlikely at this point. The police report notes injuries, and if there were none, it means the responding officers are actively conspiring to cover up a crime.

Even if there were no injuries, we still have a witness saying Martin was on top beating Zimmerman. That’s a situation where defensive force is justified, IMHO.

[treis]

@PatriotX

You have examined the totality of the evidence available to her and were thus able to rule out what is not in her files?

I’ll say it for the fourth or fifth time. If there is some fantastic piece of evidence that we aren’t aware of, I am willing to change my mind. Given the media scrutiny and the plethora of leaks, that possibility seems very, very remote though.

I think it’s noteworthy that “maybe there’s something else!” seems to be a common refrain from the Zimmerman is guilty crowd. Doesn’t show a whole lot of confidence in your position, IMHO.

[PatriotX]

@Hbns

Anybody else think the murder 2 charge is just leverage to get him to plead down to unintentional homicide or similar? Wrap this whole thing up without a circus of a trial and the potential problems that might arise if he were acquitted?

It’s possible.
but ca’t really tell at this point.

I think the SA can change her charges to something lesser if she chooses. So I don’t think that it costs her so much that it prevents her from bluffing.

@you_with_the_face

What if no wounds are noted in the EMT report? No broken nose or signs of a beaten head?

His nose looks less “broken” in recent pictures than in older ones. Not that it means anything.

@you_with_the_face

To me that would be pretty compelling evidence that “who started it” is a moot point. Any altercation that doesn’t result in any signficant injuries is not an altercation that justifies shooting someone dead.

I don’t think there’s anyway to get away from who started it.

[Steophan]

@you_with_the_face

What if no wounds are noted in the EMT report? No broken nose or signs of a beaten head?

To me that would be pretty compelling evidence that “who started it” is a moot point. Any altercation that doesn’t result in any signficant injuries is not an altercation that justifies shooting someone dead.

Correction - Any altercation that doesn’t contain the reasonable threat of serious injuries is not an altercation that justifies shooting someone dead.

That said, any evidence that Zimmerman wasn’t injured casts doubt on his statement, and the police report.

[Bricker]

@you_with_the_face

What if no wounds are noted in the EMT report? No broken nose or signs of a beaten head?

I agree that this is significant. I have long said the EMT report is a crucial piece of evidence. What did they find? What treatment did they provide? Was there bleeding? How much?

To me that would be pretty compelling evidence that “who started it” is a moot point. Any altercation that doesn’t result in any signficant injuries is not an altercation that justifies shooting someone dead.

Maybe. In the context of what we know so far, I agree it’s pretty compelling, but only insofar as it either supports or contradicts the story we believe Zimmerman told.

I can think of plenty of altercations that don’t involve any injuries but still support shooting someone dead… its just that none of them fit at all with what we know of this one.

[PatriotX]

@treis

I’ll say it for the fourth or fifth time. If there is some fantastic piece of evidence that we aren’t aware of, I am willing to change my mind. Given the media scrutiny and the plethora of leaks, that possibility seems very, very remote though.

I think it’s noteworthy that “maybe there’s something else!” seems to be a common refrain from the Zimmerman is guilty crowd. Doesn’t show a whole lot of confidence in your position, IMHO.

Just asking how you reached your conclusion that Obi Wan was “her only hope”.

[Jack_Batty]

Zimmerman’s brother needs to shut up. He’s doing the guy no favors.

He’s been on the news going on about, “one more slam to the head, and I would feeding him applesauce for the rest of his life,” and hyperbolic shit like that.

This morning, I saw him on some newscast where now he is claiming that Martin was sitting on Zimmerman’s chest, covering his mouth and nose and he was just about to pass out when he shot Martin. If that’s the case, how the hell did he manage to shout for help? And how did he get a gun out of his waistband to do the deed?

His brother, I’m sure, is looking out for his best interests, but he’s fucking him over with every word that pours out of his mouth.

[Fear_Itself]

@Jack_Batty

Zimmerman’s This morning, I saw him on some newscast where now he is claiming that Martin was sitting on Zimmerman’s chest, covering his mouth and nose and he was just about to pass out when he shot Martin. If that’s the case, how the hell did he manage to shout for help?

That is a very good point. I doubt the defense will make any claim about his mouth being covered in the moments immediately preceding the gunshot, as that would contradict the claim that Zimmerman was heard screaming in the 911 recording.

[treis]

@PatriotX

Just asking how you reached your conclusion that Obi Wan was “her only hope”.

I think you’re taking that a bit too literally. For example, she has the hope of God incorporating himself and testifying to what happened that night, or that aliens come down and provide their surveillance footage of that night. Those are just slightly less likely hopes than there being some damning evidence we don’t know about.

[JoelUpchurch]

@steronz

Possibly, but I don’t see that fitting in with Zimmerman’s actions. Volunteering for a 5 hour interview without a lawyer present? Turning himself in quietly? Launching a website to ask for financial support?

These are the actions of someone convinced of their own innocence, IMO. If that was the prosecutor’s intention, I think she’ll be disappointed.

I think we can stipulate that Zimmerman’s actions don’t show an overabundance of common sense for even an innocent man much less a guilty man. Whether Zimmerman thinks he is innocent is not relevant.

We don’t really know what Corey’s intent is. She may be planning on losing the self-defense hearing and then lambasting the judge and the SYG law. Prosecutors hate the law anyway, since it takes a lot of cases out of their hands that they could have exercised their discretion on before. Any law that takes power out the hands of prosecutors is not going to be popular with prosecutors. Meanwhile charging 2nd makes her look tough.

[YogSothoth]

@Bricker

However, now we have an experienced --if somewhat zealous – prosecutor who has looked at all the evidence, and determined that she should charge second degree murder. And she reached this decision because she has access to all the evidence and understands what she needs to prove. It might be a bit of overcharging, but frankly that’s a tactic of many prosecutors. Or it might be the perfect charge for the conduct that she believes happened that night.

What makes you think she’s somewhat zealous?

[JoelUpchurch]

They say the formal arraignment hearing won’t be until May 29th. Is that a long time? Does the discovery process begin before arraignment? I guess it would make sense to allow the defendant to peek at the evidence against him before he enters a plea.
http://www.bostonherald.com/news/national/south/view/20120412george_zimmerman_to_be_arraigned_may_29_in_trayvon_martin_case/srvc=home&position=recent

[Bricker]

@YogSosoth

What makes you think she’s somewhat zealous?

A number of factors. Her decision to charge a twelve-year-old as an adult with first-degree murder certainly suggests zealousness.

Press reports have also characterized her this way:

While Ms. Corey’s office cautioned that bypassing the grand jury should not be interpreted as an indication of how she would decide to handle the case, she is widely considered one of Florida’s most aggressive prosecutors. When she first ran for state attorney in 2008 , she joked that she was so tough on crime that she would throw her own mother in jail if she broke the law.

“I don’t play,” she said, “even when it’s people in my own family.”

This is not necessarily a bad thing, mind you. I’ve never heard any indication that she flouts the law, and many say she’s unusually immune to political pressure.

But it is fair, in my view, to say she’s zealous.

[Stoid]

@Bricker

Because as a matter of law, there is no authority for the proposition that following Martin was reckless. But there are some people, some people who may become jurors, who might conclude that it was.

@you_with_the_face

As a matter of law, there is no “authority for the proposition” that dangling a baby from the edge of a balcony while drunk is reckless. But most people–even lawyers and judges, I’d imagine–would conclude such a thing is reckless. And this is perfectly appropriate, objections from defense attorneys notwithstanding.

Pretty much my point all along – the jury decides if Zimmerman’s actions were reckless. Actions are often unique to circumstances, that is why you put it to 12 peers to decide. I described several times why a jury could find that Zimmerman’s actions were reckless and that Martin’s actions, if he struck first, might be very reasonable.

@Fear_Itself

That is a very good point. I doubt the defense will make any claim about his mouth being covered in the moments immediately preceding the gunshot, as that would contradict the claim that Zimmerman was heard screaming in the 911 recording.

Wasn’t there an analysis of the voice by an expert who stated that it whoever it was it was not Zimmerman? Was that refuted? Although of course that might be used by the defendant as proof that Zimmerman’s mouth was covered… But then, if Martin had that kind of control, why would he be screaming for help? (My opinion: Zimmerman had the gun out and visible to Martin for a while before he pulled the trigger. Long enough for Martin to be terrified that he was going to die. Which is why he sounds so desperate in the audiotape.)

@JoelUpchurch

I think we can stipulate that Zimmerman’s actions don’t show an overabundance of common sense for even an innocent man much less a guilty man.

Which is putting it mildly.

Whether Zimmerman thinks he is innocent is not relevant.

It is to the scenario presented that you were responding to.

[Shodan]

@Hbns

Anybody else think the murder 2 charge is just leverage to get him to plead down to unintentional homicide or similar? Wrap this whole thing up without a circus of a trial and the potential problems that might arise if he were acquitted?

I was thinking that too.

@treis

I’ll say it for the fourth or fifth time. If there is some fantastic piece of evidence that we aren’t aware of, I am willing to change my mind. Given the media scrutiny and the plethora of leaks, that possibility seems very, very remote though.

Maybe the prosecutor has some smoking gun, but unless she does, it seems to my non-lawyer mind that she will have an uphill battle proving murder. Maybe she is hoping for a jury made up of folks like some in this thread.

Hell, OJ got off, so I suppose anything is possible.

I find it difficult to believe that Zimmerman wasn’t injured at all, and the police just wrote that he was in their report because he said so. So I doubt that will be the smoking gun. Another witness? Maybe, but then the defense can argue that the witness is unreliable because he or she waited until after the media storm got going to come forward (or change his or her story).

If I were Zimmerman and the incident went down like he says (apparently) it did, I wouldn’t take a plea. Roll the dice.

I predict (with the confidence of ignorance) that it will wind up like Bernie Goetz - convict him of something stupid, just to throw some meat to the mob, but acquit him of the serious stuff.

Regards,
Shodan

[Terr]

@Stoid

Wasn’t there an analysis of the voice by an expert who stated that it whoever it was it was not Zimmerman? Was that refuted?

It was, by three other “experts”.

[Bricker]

@you_with_the_face

As a matter of law, there is no “authority for the proposition” that dangling a baby from the edge of a balcony while drunk is reckless.

Sure there is. Ask Rudolfo Regalado, who got two years in prison for reckless endangerment in 1991 for doing just that.

[Stoid]

@Terr

It was, by three other “experts”.

Have you got any links for that? The Google just confirms that two experts have said it was not Zimmerman.

[Stoid]

@Bricker

Sure there is. Ask Rudolfo Regalado, who got two years in prison for reckless endangerment in 1991 for doing just that.

And before that? Precedents have to be set by someone…