Keep going= keep participating in this thread by asking questions and pointing out why the outrage is not irrational, countering sentiments expressed by folks such as yourself.
Why can’t I be happy? Because I have sympathy for the family and for the kid who was shot, as I have expressed before. Even if I believed Zimmerman’s story, I don’t think Martin deserved to die that night. I don’t think a sock to the nose is enough to justify lethal force.
(Hell, a sock to the nose would probably be the only thing I could contribute in a fight with someone. If I get into a fight with someone, should I worry about the implications of me flinging out a fist and bloodying their nose?)
A lot of the people who are “waiting and seeing” are not convincing me of their impartiality. Why? Because I’m not seeing them attacking any of the more desperate speculations supporting Zimmerman’s claim (such as denying that a chase ever happened). When someone says something crazy like, “We don’t know anything! That’s why an arrest hasn’t been made!” the “wait and seers” are oddly silent in correcting them, though they are quite vocal in correcting those who’d like there to be an arrest. There’s a one-sidedness in all this “waiting and seeing”. I don’t believe people can really be so dispassionate and unbiased. It’s just that some of us aren’t ashamed in expressing our feelings.
You are forgetting this is IMHO. It is perfectly fine for us to express opinions, emotions, or whatever about this case.
Why are you giving me this silly lecture? It’s damn well obvious these facts were only revealed after the initial investigation. Thats besides the point of my question. Obviously no charges have been pressed against Zimmerman to date, even in the face of all the current evidence, so that’s a red herring anyway.
Many posts ago I posted the jury instructions for second degree murder in Florida. According to Florida, at least as they would instruct you if you served on a jury, to convict of murder in the second degree requires proving malice in the mind of the shooter, which is no slam dunk in this case.
monstro, it’s not a waiting and seeing situation. It’s a waiting situation. It has to be investigated and has been pointed out a number of times the process takes time. All the people waiving signs in the street think nothing is being done when the exact opposite is true. If prosecutors rush this because of public pressure then the case suffers.
OK, then I guess we’re responding to 2 different threads then because your original question was to DrDeth and I gave you a scenario where a warrant could be acquired with little effort.
Now if you want to argue that police do or do not go to this effort that’s probably another 5 pages. I imagine the larger the jurisdiction, the more organized the police force and the more likely they would go to the trouble of acquiring the maximum amount of forensic material. I could query the few officers within my sphere of acquaintances but I don’t think that would count toward a good overview of what is or isn’t done normally.
My original response only showed that it was possible within the scope of officer’s power to get such a warrant in a shooting death. It doesn’t take a psychic to predict the fallout of such an event.
I haven’t been on this thread for a couple of days but I came across one of the original news reports for this issue and it really puts things in perspective:
If you watch the video the journalist interviews a witness named “John” who says he saw Martin on top of Zimmerman beating him. Zimmerman was yelling for someone to help him. This man “John” locked the door and called 9-1-1, he didn’t see the shooting but he heard it while he was on the line with the 9-1-1 operator, when he looked out the window he saw that Martin was dead.
Funny how the media has utterly ignored this information isn’t it? Moreover, I think this is a good indication why Zimmerman was not arrested initially. Perhaps even more importantly, in light of this evidence I would say it is very likely Zimmerman will not be indicted by the Grand Jury.
By lying. In fact, as I go back and read your initial response, I see you spoke of how “flexible” the possibilities were.
I am now even more convinced that you meant that the police could claim something without fear of contradiction, even if it wasn’t true. In other words, your answer is that the police could easily lie, and THAT’S how they’d get the warrant.
I have a question about Grand Jury rules of evidence and the phone call with the girlfriend, that I haven’t seen specifically addressed (or else I missed it). Maybe Bricker can help here (or cite an earlier post)?
Okay, so maybe the phone call with the gf might be inadmissable in court, as hearsay. But what about at the Grand Jury? What are the rules of evidence there? Are there any rules of evidence? Can that phone call be presented as evidence to a Grand Jury, and can such Jury consider it in deciding on an indictment?
Le sigh. How you discuss the facts here are just so ridiculous. Martin just laid a little ol’ “sock to the nose” on Zimmerman, that’s all . . . How do you know that? We have a witness saying Martin was on top of Zimmerman beating him.
Well, this is also ridiculous. There’s no one-sidedness–it is correct that essentially “we don’t know anything.”
Here’s a prediction. Let’s assume it comes out that Trayvon went to town on Zimmerman and did stuff that any person in this thread would agree gave Zimmerman a reasonable fear for his life (say, wailing on his face while sitting on his chest and trying to choke him after having been the aggressor in the physical altercation in the first place). And that Zimmerman was extremely lucky to somehow manage to knock Trayvon off of him and get to his gun before Trayvon finished the job (say, Trayvon got distracted by something for a split second in classic action movie fashion). And let’s assume that Zimmerman is not indicted by a grand jury.
(Notez bien for the hard-of-reading among us: I am not saying any of the above is likely, more likely than anything else, probable, plausible, even physically possible. I’m just saying assume that this is the case.)
I bet many people will still defend Trayvon and condemn Zimmerman. They’ll probably say things like “Trayvon was reacting to the culture of fear that surrounds young African-American males. He had had enough of being scrutinized in the malls and being stopped by police for no reason at all. He just snapped. He can’t be blamed for his actions–it is really the fault of all the racist cops and shop owners–and white society at large–who caused him to feel that way.”
ASSUMING Zimmerman is claiming that he never chased Martin, this contradicts the 911 tape. Because it really does–despite what you say–sound like he is on foot when he says he is following Martin.
Assuming.
This is gives the police more than enough reason to arrest him, if this is what he said happened.
Not convict him and execute him.
Just charge him and have his lawyer explain why it sounds like he’s chasing when he denied doing so (IF this is what happened).
I anticipate you finding some fault with this post. You seem to be unable to concede any point at all, no matter how small.
Can someone explain why it is that we cannot assume that Trayvon was acting in self defense if he was fighting with Zimmerman? He was walking home from the store when he had some kind of confrontation with an armed man who was not a police officer. Why is are people trying to find justification for Zimmerman acting in self defence, but not Trayvon?
Because Trayvon is dead, and prosecuting him is moot. Zimmerman isn’t. Whether Trayvon was acting in self-defense or not is immaterial to Zimmerman’s prosecution (or non-prosecution, as the case may be).
Zimmerman may claim he never chased Martin, but admit that he was following Martin. There is a difference between “chase” and “follow.”
I agree that if Zimmerman claims he never followed Martin, this contradicts the 911 tape. Not because I agree that the sounds indicate a foot pursuit of some kind, but because there’s a point on the tape in which Zimmerman says he is following – not chasing – Martin.
They *can’t *be. Do you understand that. No charges can be pressed against Zimmerman now, no matter the evidence. The DA has called a Grand Jury, based upon the fact the DA considers it is possibly a capital case. Now, we all have to wait until the GJ makes it’s decision. (A confession and plea bargain I suppose could be reached, I am not sure. Bricker?)
Is it, though? If Trayvon was acting in self defense, then Zimmerman was not, unless people are proposing that both sides were acting in self defense.
Trayvon would be alive had Zimmerman either just minded his own business and let a black kid walk down the street, or if Zimmerman called 911 and left it at that. Without some attempt by an armed Zimmerman to confront Trayvon, there is no shooting.