Why I am voting Republican

I’m surprised you weren’t aware that comparing people of African descent with apes has a long and dreadful history in Western culture. This article (PDF) from the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology covers some of it, from Richard Owen’s (a Darwin contemporary) reference to negroes as “the lowest race of Man” to Hitler’s reference to negroes as “half-apes”. Comparing a white man to a monkey isn’t racist because whites have not been compared to monkeys by white supremacists since the 1600s.

Then why didn’t they do that to Obama? Even the laziest Dems were able to find photos of chimps that matched Bush’s expressions, rather than play with Photoshop. Slapping a picture of any random monkey on a shirt and saying that’s Obama, with no attempt to tie it to how the guy looks, doesn’t fly. Either it’s racist or it’s pathetically lazy. Come on! Put some effort into your ridicule!

Maybe this is the wrong thread, but just for the sake of debate.

Conservatives believe liberals hold destructive and loony beliefs as well. Don’t we all start from a place where we assume our personal outlook is correct? It’s a real challenge to find a way to communicate about things we strongly disagree over and find some common ground or a reasonable compromise, but realistically, what’s the alternative. We have to try and remember that’s it’s not just about our party and it’s victory.

I saw George Will on The Colbert Report and he gave a brief description of the difference between conservatives and liberals.
The points of the argument are Freedom and Equality. Worthy subjects that are not easy to nail down. Conservatives prize freedom and accept inequality of outcome. Liberals prize equality and are willing to sacrifice and circumscribe freedom for the sake of equality.

Philosophically speaking I find that to be an interesting and worthwhile discussion to work on rather than loony or destructive.

Oh, I’m fully aware that comparing a person to an ape is insulting. I was wondering why it is beyond the pale to do it to Obama but not to Bush, and why the outrage is so selective. For what values of X is the statement “X is a chimp!” legitimate?

You seem to be OK with it for Bush, since I don’t remember you making any objections over the last few years (I might be wrong here, in which case feel free to point out where you did). I will assume that this is not simply a case of your objecting to your own ox being gored.

So what we seem to be finding is the belief that, because of his race, Obama should be exempt from certain sorts of satire. Is that what you are saying?

You have been known to refer to certain female politicians as whores and cunts and so forth, so it doesn’t seem like the tone of the political debate, nor political correctness, are the concerns. So perhaps it is just blacks who need to have the heat in the kitchen turned down a few degrees. Is that because blacks as a rule are less capable of dealing with (admittedly unfair) criticisms of this sort?

If it is merely another instance of “Bush really is a chimp but Obama is above criticism” etc., etc., fine - we can leave it at that. I was just wondering if this was a principled position, or merely expediency.

Regards,
Shodan

You’re right. But that’s not what the problem is. It’s not a case of conservative values versus liberal values; as I said, many conservatives are supporting Obama, and it’s been shown that Bush is not really a conservative at all. The problem is that the last 8 years have shown that the policies of the current Republican party are destructive and harmful to America. This isn’t a case of believing, say, smaller government is harmful in an abstract sense, it’s a case of seeing what the current administration has valued and how it has hurt the nation, and that McCain intends to continue the policies of the last 8 years. Voting Republican isn’t voting for conservatism right now, it’s voting for policies that have been demonstrated to be harmful.

Listening to the audio the bar owner selling the shirts claimed the cartoon character he knew because of his grandkids, looked like Obama. Big Ears, a big smile, and a similar hairline. Is he completely wrong?

I find it near impossible to believe an older man from the south wasn’t aware of the racist connotations of the comparison so I’m defending that stupidity. IMO hateful prejudice directed at another isn’t all that different no matter what form of expression it takes. Are the Ts a lot worse than the insulting video aimed at republicans.

Oh comon. You can’t see the difference? The Bush pictures are a slam against his personal intelligence and competency. The history of comparing black men to apes is an attack on an entire race based on the color of their skin. Both are insults but please don’t pretend they’re the same insult.

Is there a difference between “That specific republican is a buffoon,” and “All republicans are buffoons”

Right. It’s not racist if you use photoshop.

Seriously, this is quite possibly the most desperate rationalization I’ve heard.

I don’t know. We’d have to get a shot of Obama eating a banana to be sure. :stuck_out_tongue:

I can accept there wasn’t any overt malice in the choice of graphic. But it’s really kind of silly to not know better than to compare a black man to a monkey. Like I said in one of the Pit threads, make Obama look like a donkey or something. It plays off the Democrat image, he looks more like one than he looks like a monkey, and you can get some mileage out of the ‘ass’ thing. Comparing him to a monkey is either racist, equivocating (cf. Shodan’s tu quoque), or thoughtless. And a thoughtless joke ain’t no joke at all.

And this is precisely why I’m undecided.

On almost every policy issue of importance, my views better match those likely to be championed by Senator McCain.

Senator Obama, however, has redefined the electoral landscape with his focus on reasoned debate, and his careful examination of issues. In a sense, then, he’s brought a new issue to the table: how should we conduct elections?

That’s a big issue, and I’m entirely on Obama’s side for it. I feel sometimes like I want to be a single-issue voter, with THAT as the issue.

But then I get discouraged, because I see threads like this, and I realize that the one message of Senator Obama’s that I, a conservative Republican, most connect with is one that’s apparently lost on many of his other supporters.

No. This is the first time I’ve so much as seriously considered it (as an adult).

On that we agree. I think it’s important to express what you just said to independents and conservatives for clarities sake. We need to ty and return to honest debates about real issues. IMO voting for McCain because he holds some conservative views and voting against Obama because he’s too liberal is a step in the wrong direction concerning honest debate. Both parties need to do a better job of policing themselves but based on the Bush admin. Republicans have a big job ahead.

I have a hard time having patience with those who say “Those dam liberals will ruin this country” after what has happened in the last eight years.

Only by rephrasing can you make it so.

Anyway, Bricker’s right. I’m not going to spend more time trying to defend one insult or another.

Yes. As mentioned in the Silver Lining thread, one of the things I would like to see from an Obama presidency is that the GOP takes the time to re-evaluate where it stands and come out stronger as a result. Quite frankly I would like to vote for a Republican. I place fiscal responsibility high on the list of issues I vote on, and I’m all for personal liberty. (I just wish folks could see that personal liberty includes letting gays alone, but one step at a time.) Right now, though, the Democrats embody those principles more.

Wow. You’re all over the place with attacks on me, Obama, and blacks in general. But what you’re not attacking is the racist depiction of a black man with monkeys and apes, a very detailed history of which is given in the peer reviewed article I linked for you in my previous post. If you were ignorant of the issues and the history before, it was understandable if remarkable. But now you have no excuse. Comparing Bush to a monkey is childish; comparing Obama to a monkey is racist.

It’s a lot like walking around with a swastika on, Shodan. Sure, you might be carrying it for good luck, but, you know, it’s hard for the rest of us to tell you’re not a neo-nazi.

Or, oh, here’s a good one. Little Black Sambo. You know where that book is set? India! They got tigers in India. So it’s not really about black people at all. Still, somehow they had to close that restaurant chain.

So, yeah, you can call Bush our chimp-in-chief without any fear of being seen as racist, cause, well, he does look a bit chimpy, and there isn’t a tradition of people from New England being called chimps as a bit of racism.

Sadly, calling kids ‘porch monkeys’ tends to get people in trouble when directed at people who have a history of being called apes.

Basically, it’s all got to do with stupid people. So… does Obama look like a chimp? Cause I don’t think he does. He sure doesn’t look like Curious George. He doesn’t even look like that sock monkey.

It’s a cute sock monkey, I kinda want a sock monkey in a suit now, but it doesn’t look much like him.

So… mmm… pretty sure they’re calling him a monkey cause he’s black. I’m preeeetty sure that’s racist.

Yes - Bush is white and Obama is half-white.

They are the same insult. “X is a chimp!” That’s the insult. AFAICT you are saying that it is legitimate to apply this to Obama but not to Bush, based on the color of their skin. Apparently Obama can’t take it the way Bush can.

I am not entirely sure if this is a question or not, but assuming it is, then yes. There is a difference between “Bush is a buffoon” and “all Republicans are buffoons”. In the same way, there is a difference between “Obama is an ape” and “all black people are apes”. Now, if the T-shirt in question had said “all blacks are apes” then you would have a legitimate point. But it doesn’t say that.

You are doing, IOW, what I was hoping would not but feared would happen - assigning racist motives to criticism of Obama (granted, it is unfair to compare a politician to an ape). Criticism of Obama, thus, is criticism of the whole race and therefore beyond the pale.

Now if one needs to go on to the whole thing about how black people can’t be racist, fine - it’s a different thread, and too silly to bother with anyway. But if you are going to insist that criticizing a politician means that you are necessarily criticizing his whole race and that is taboo because it is racist, then (one would hope) this can be a consistent principle.

Regards,
Shodan

Amen, brother.

How likely is it really? In listening to the Gore/ Bush debates I wasn’t very impressed with Gore and I didn’t hear anything outrageous from Bush. In fact some of the things he said made good sense.
{I don’t think we should use our troops for nation building}HA!! I didn’t vote for him but I never imagined he’d be as bad as he’s been. What it amounted to was he didn’t give a crap about honestly representing his views and his intended actions during the campaign. In 2000 I really liked McCain but now he seems too Bush like and I sincerely feel he’s sold his integrity for ambition. Is he likely to do the same as Bush did. Say things that sound good during the campaign and then pursue another agenda when in office? It sure looks like it. Can we afford that?
I don’t think so. My advise to conservatives would be , do not elect McCain on the hope that he may not be as bad as Bush. We shouldn’t risk it. Elect Obama and then elect honest conservatives to congress and the Senate to balance things out. Get rid of the corrupt power brokers who rely on money from Cooperations. Reject the dishonest and malicious sound bite campaign tactics.

btw, Those same principles apply to Dems as well.

But you’re aware that message is just as lost on a lot of the republican party as well right? If it wasn’t Bush couldn’t have happened. That kind of change isn’t going to happen overnight , but I believe Obama can at least get us started in that direction. Continuing failed policies and more dishonesty won’t. IMHO.

The highlighted part is a falsehood.

No, it isn’t. I have already cited several examples of use of the criticism in question was used with no necessary link to racism at all.

But if the Democrats are going to use swastikas as freely as they have images of Bush as a chimp for the last few years, they lose the right to pretend that the swastika is a symbol of racism.

As I expected, it seems to be another case of IOKIADDI.

Regards,
Shodan

So I can tell someone, “You’re an idiot,” because they’re, say, Southern, because I’d say the same thing to someone who just added 2 and 2 to make 5?