Why I Don't Trust Conservatives/Republicans

[Sam_Stone]

quote:

Originally posted by spoke-
You know, I get a little tired of conservatives trying to claim a monopoly on the concept of “freedom.”

This moderate liberal is for freedom too, but my concept of freedom includes:
Freedom to choose my religion, or to choose no religion at all, without government interference.
Freedom for consenting adults to make their own decisions about their sex lives.
Freedom of speech. Including unpopular speech.
Freedom from oppression by powerful corporate interests.
Freedom from tainted foods and poisonous drugs. (Thank you FDA!)
Freedom from virulent disease. (Thank you CDC!)
Freedom from pollutants and poisons being introduced into the air I must breathe and the water I must drink. (Thank you EPA!)
Freedom to enjoy the nation’s natural beauty without despoilment of public lands by oil and timber companies.
Freedom from con games and shady business practices designed to fleece the unsophisticated.
Like I said before, the government is not the only entity capable of impinging on our freedoms. We must be equally cautious lest our freedoms be taken from us by powerful corporations.

Yes, yes, yes!

I see. So we are simply inventing our own definition of ‘freedom’. Fine. I want the ‘freedom’ to live 1000 years. I want the ‘freedom’ to be given free computer upgrades every year. I want the ‘freedom’ to go and live in Stoidela’s house, since it’s probably nicer than mine.

How am I doing? Am I a Liberal yet?

I hope you can see the contradiction inherant in these ‘freedoms’. Stoidela no doubt wants the ‘freedom’ to keep me out of my house. In this case, my ‘freedom’ can only be exercised at the expense of someone else’s.

And that’s the problem with economic ‘freedom’. If you want the ‘freedom’ to have something that you didn’t earn, it must necessarily infringe on the freedom of the person who DID earn it, because these things aren’t created by the magical product fairies.

[Stoid]

Sam, when you make up stuff to argue with, there’s no question that you’ll win.

Let us know when you want to talk to us about what we are talking about, 'k?

[furt]

Yeah, those pro-life zealots like Mother Theresa are motivated entirely by selfishness.
Stoidela, your arrogance is rather breathtaking, so I’ll toot my own horn, too.

–I personally have supported several third-world children through sponsorship agencies. And while I think foreign aid is a good thing, I do not believe it is the government’s job to feed the entire world.

–I have worked in several AIDS hospices. I do not think it is the government’s responsibility to operate them.

–I have worked with Habitat for Humanity building houses and have been employed in numerous homeless shelters. I do not believe the government is obligated to provide free housing for everyone.

–I have worked with emotionally traumatized, “at risk” kids. I do not think it is the government’s job to keep every kid off drugs.

–I am presently involved in a ministry which involves going out to visit hospitalized or shut-in senior citizens. I do not think this is the government’s job.

By any objective measure you care to use–money, time, whatever–I’m going to come up as more “charitable” and “compassionate” than 99% of Democrats.

But I do not believe that it is the government’s job to do all this. It is my observed, up-close-and-inside impression that most government social service agencies are clumsy, inefficient apparatuses that do the job they are assigned to rather badly, and usually end up with negative side effects as well.

The government’s job is to provide is general equality of opportunity, protection from outside foces, and rule of law. Any thing they do outside of that may be nice, but it is funadamentally not their job.

It is OUR job as citizens to help our neighbor. It is not the government’s job to prop up the national moral fiber.
When was the last time you invited a homeless couple to stay with you in your one-bedroom apartment?
I have.

So until you can top me in the compassion derby, you can take your self-righteous smugness and shove it up your ass.

[Amok]

David B wrote:
What you are characterizing as “conservative” is not what the majority of people in this country think of when they hear the word; it is not the way most people use the word.

Do you have data to support that assertion?

[Shagnasty]

*Originally posted by Amok *
**

David B wrote:
What you are characterizing as “conservative” is not what the majority of people in this country think of when they hear the word; it is not the way most people use the word.

Do you have data to support that assertion?

**

I consider myself politically conservative and socially moderate and I agree with everthing that Scylla has said. If that is what the rest of the country wishes to believe about Rebublicans, then so be it. ALL of the Republicans that I know fall into the category that she has described.

[Scylla]

*Originally posted by David B *
And your point is what? The very FAQ that you pointed to supports me, not you. Others have posted to explain the same thing, and you have ignored them. You have, in fact, ignored much of what I’ve explained.

**

Please bullet point what you’ve said that I’ve ignored, and I’ll repond. By “others” I think you are referring to jshore’s post which hit while I was typing. I missed it, but I don’t see how four people equals a majority any more than Ted Kennedy, Jesse Jackson, and Bill Clinton equal Democrats ideals. As for the corporations, one’s that don’t maintain moral and value workers tend to be less productive. The market takes care of such Companies, and the employees go to where they are valued and valuable. The Government has no intrinsic system to trim fat. The bureaucracy grows.

** What you are characterizing as “conservative” is not what the majority of people in this country think of when they hear the word; it is not the way most people use the word.

**

I too, would like to see you support that.

**It seems you are a bit too overeager to find me in error due to the number of times I have recently pointed out your own. I’m sorry to see that. But you’re just going to have to deal with it in your own way. **

I’m trying not to take it personally.

::Seriously, I’m joking about the revenge motive.::

[Scylla]

*Originally posted by The Ryan *
**Scylla, I think that you think that the word “secular” means that opposite of what it does. **

Well that’s rather embarassing.

Ummm. I meant to type nonsecular. Yeah, really.

[Scylla]

*Originally posted by David B *
Well, I really wish more “conservatives” held to what P.J. said. Unfortunately, in the real world, they don’t.

If any of us actually live up to what we beleive in (excepting yourself of course who has attained perfection and infallibility in all things (said of course, with out the least trace of sarcasm,) Than the world would be a different place.

[Scylla]

Spoke:

I agree with what you say. I think the CDC does a fantastic job with a small budget. I also think you would need to define what you mean as relates to corporate oppression and such, but I agree with the spirit of what you’ve said.

[yosemite]

furt wrote to Stoidela:

When was the last time you invited a homeless couple to stay with you in your one-bedroom apartment?
I have.

So until you can top me in the compassion derby, you can take your self-righteous smugness and shove it up your ass.

I’d like to second that, furt.

My mom is the epitome of generosity. She has given SCADS of money to the needy people around her, and she regularly volunteers at the local soup kitchen. And she is living with a fixed income. And she is your typical grandmotherly conservative type. But, according to Stoidela, she’s “selfish”, right? Bullshit. What self-righteous self-serving crap.

[Sam_Stone]

Perhaps the generalization I posted before is actually correct:

Conservatives think that liberals have bad ideas.

Liberals think Conservatives are bad people.

[Stoid]

The insistence on misunderstanding my initial point is amusing, I gotta tell ya.

Go back and read my first few posts again, and then come back and attack me. Because I am really not interested in debating a point different than that which I made.

stoid

[yosemite]

*Originally posted by Stoidela *
The insistence on misunderstanding my initial point is amusing, I gotta tell ya.

Go back and read my first few posts again, and then come back and attack me. Because I am really not interested in debating a point different than that which I made.

I read your OP.

Republican ideology = selfish.

Got it.

Now, please. Could you answer furt’s post? When was the last time you invited a homeless couple into your home? When have you given thousands of dollars to needy people (like my conservative, grandmotherly mom has)? Where is evidence of your personal generosity? Sure, it’s easy to promote more taxes. But do you put your PERSONAL time and income where your oh-so-“generous” liberal mouth is? What have YOU done, personally, to be more generous? Where do you get off claiming that you are not as “selfish” as these Conservatives like furt and my mom, who believe in a “selfish” ideology that you slam in your OP?

Could you answer that, instead of just bleating that we “misunderstood” the OP? And if we did misunderstand, please point out how, point by point. Don’t just dismiss us with a mere “you missed my point” statement. Please give details about HOW and WHY we missed it.

[Scylla]

Let’s look at the OP Title:

**Why I Don’t Trust Conservatives/Republicans

**

That’s 50% of the U.S. population.

How does the author feel about them?

**It’s very simple.

                     The conservative/Republican ideology is completely selfish. It's about "me, me me". The ideas and beliefs are all about maximizing both
                     the individual's and the corporations' profits and personal comforts, at the expense of other people, the environment, whatever. Now,
                     some people may like that, but that's not the point.

**

This is the fundamental assertion of this thread. One half of the population of the United States sees nothing outside themselves, in fact has it built into their ideology that nothing outside themselves matters. Also built into this ideology is the beleif that it is good to hurt others and commit destructive acts for self-interest.

That’s a serious accusation to make.

Someone I’ve come to respect and high regard for his opinions said:

**Unless, of course, you’re a homosexual. Then you don’t get the same freedoms as everybody else.

**

Another huge accusation at a group of people including myself that are identified as “Republicans.”

I’ve done some shitty things in my time here. I’ve learned some things as well.

If I saw a thread titled “Why I don’t Trust Jewish People.” Or “Why I don’t trust Liberals,” and I read such bullshit blanket accusations, I would not post to that thread except to support my Jewish and Liberal friends against such ignorance.

If that person belonged to the same group as I, I would be embarassed. I would want to distance myself from such viewpoints.

In spite of this, some Republicans/Conservatives have tried to patiently explain what we beleive, and why we beleive as we do.

We are told we are wrong, we don’t beleive these things. These people that accuse us are telling us what our viewpoints are.

In this same thread we are told that Liberals/Democrats are generous kind and caring.

We are told that we are hypocrites.

This kind of ignorance surprises and disapoints me.

[Stoid]

*Originally posted by yosemitebabe *
**

I read your OP.

Republican ideology = selfish.

Got it.

**

No, ya don’t.

Maybe it’s because you choose to think in such simplistic terms. And yer realllly touchy.
Saying that the underlying motive of an ideology is selfish is not identical to saying that YOU as a PERSON are selfish if you prefer the conservative ideology in your politics. You may feel that way, you may think that way, you may respond that way. But since it does not mean that, and I did not mean that when I said it, it’s basically your problem.

The ideologyis based in selfish ideals and desires. Profit, the individual over the group in all situations, the company over the planet, whatever. The politics of conservatism (as understood by most people, as portrayed by most public conservatives) is the politics of ME. The politics of liberals is the politics of US.

If you are a conservative, you may be any number of other things, because you personally do not personify conservative ideology. You may identify with it, and that is why you call yourself same. You do not personify it.

What you are doing is actually supporting my theory, funnily enough. You identify as a conservative; I view conservative ideology as self-involved. You are so personally self-involved that you take it that I am talking about YOU personally.

People say all kinds of things about all kinds of groups that I belong to. I do not assume they are talking about ME as an individual. People say things about IDEOLOGIES that I admire or that I even identify with, I do not assume they are talking about ME as an individual.

Can you not separate these two? Do you so closely identify with everything you agree with that you become the thing itself?

stoid

[Scylla]

Posted by you know who amongst other gibberish:

[quote]
**People say all kinds of things about all kinds of groups that I belong to. I do not assume they are talking about ME as an individual.
People say things about IDEOLOGIES that I admire or that I even identify with, I do not assume they are talking about ME as an
individual.

[quote]
**

Bullshit! You didn’t say Republican Ideology. You said you didn’t trust Republicans. You have said Republicans are hypocrites. You didn’t say Republican Ideology is hypocritical.

You haven’t been attacking abstract ideas. You’ve been attacking people that have them.

Generous and selfless, kind, concerned for others, uh-huh, sure.

BTW: How’d the protest go?

[yosemite]

The OP title said “Why I don’t trust Conservatives/Republicans”.

If you held no personal negative judgments/opinions about this group of people, (just the “ideology”) why do you say in your OP that you don’t “trust” them? Why does your OP title not say “Why I don’t trust the Conservative/Republican Ideology”?

And, I am amused about how you have not adressed how generous you are compared to furt and my mom, the staunch Conservatives. Do you put your oh-so-generous liberal heart where your mouth is? Do YOU give your time and income to charitable causes at the same level as these Conservatives? How do you explain that they can embrace such a selfish ideology, and yet behave in such selfless ways? And do you live a life (by giving of your time and income) that is comparably selfless? Or is “selfless” bulshit from you this all just talk?

[yosemite]

Whoa Scylla - simulpost!

[Scylla]

Another Gem:

**What you are doing is actually supporting my theory, funnily enough. You identify as a conservative; I view conservative ideology as
self-involved. You are so personally self-involved that you take it that I am talking about YOU personally.

**

If your point is that you are being intolerant, bigoted and ignorant, then yes, I’d say that’s been proven.

Let me get this straight. What you are saying is that it’s ok to trash groups of people as a whole, but the people in those groups shouldn’t take it personal? That it’s okay to treat them differently based on their beleifs? That they are unworthy of trust?

I call that bigotry. Sometimes I’m a good enough person not to tolerate it when I hear it directed at others, but I have never tolerated it directed at myself.

You are spewing ignorant bigotry.

[Scylla]

And one more for fun:

**The ideologyis based in selfish ideals and desires. Profit, the individual over the group in all situations, the company over the planet,
whatever. The politics of conservatism (as understood by most people, as portrayed by most public conservatives) is the politics of ME.
The politics of liberals is the politics of US

**

Actually I think that should be “As understood by people who have no idea what they are talking about.”