Yosemitebabe:
Yeah and we said pretty much the same thing. I’m surprised our self-centered callous minds could actually reach the same conclusion.
I’m going out tomorrow to rob the poor and chop down a forest. Wanna come?
How silly of me…I forgot about the all-powerful and all-knowing Market. What I witness at the Fortune 500 company that I work for (which has been in business for about 1000 years) must all be an illusion! Because it is not in line with The Divine Word as expressed in the Holy Editorial Pages of WSJ! 
J:
Do you do better work when you feel appreciated and idnetify with the company?
Has your company been a bag of shit for the full time of its existence?
I’d be curious to know what Company. If it’s a fortune 500 company that probably wouldn’t hurt your anonymity.
Does the company suck as a whole, or just the part where you work?
but it occurs to me that I was in fact unclear.
I made this post in the context of the current situation… ie, a political context. What I was referring to, and its obvious I should have been more clear, was professional conservatives…those who DO personify the ideology. Pundits, politicians, etc.
So, my statement would have been more accurate had it been: “Why I do not trust conservative politicians, pundits, radio talk show hosts and others who make it their business to take the conservative side when issues are discussed publicly.”
stoid
Backpedal, backpedal…
“Oh, I didn’t really mean you… personally” :rolleyes:
It didn’t occur to you to say this before?
I don’t buy it. You didn’t say it before because you didn’t mean it before…
You are absolutely right. See my previous post. I realized that.
Part a: yes.
Part b: no
Not that it matters anyway, since this isn’t about “I’m more selfless than you are, nyah nyah nyah!” at least, not from my end, as I’ve explained.
But I will say this: Yes, I try to put my money where my mouth is. I fail alot, because the causes that mean the most to me also require the most of me, and that makes it hard. But I do try. (I refer to environmental protection. Off the top of my head, one of the hardest things to live up to caring about, since to do it right requires a huge commitment of money and energy, just in the way we lead our daily lives, forget doing anything extra.) My decisions are always guided and influenced by what I believe is right at least as much as they are guided by what I believe is right for me.
Interestingly enough, while I identify most with liberal ideology, and it informs the way I vote and make other choices, in my heart of hearts I am a cruel and heartless bitch. At least when it comes to people. One of these days we’ll have to start a thread about the relative value of any given human being…which I think is very little. But again, that is a really big subject, and this thread isn’t where I intend to get into it.
It will be an amusing debate, though.
stoid
Stoid:
I don’t trust professional pundits period. They make their living endorsing a particular point of view. They can neither abandon nor criticize it.
I think you’re hedging though. That’s not what you’ve been saying through several threads.
Allow me to make a serious suggestion. Claiming to refuse to read the last few posts doesn’t help.
If you regret aspects of what you have said than just say so. Anybody that holds that against you is a jerk, and people will admire you for your honesty.
If you would like to argue Conservative philosophy or for or against particular conservatives/republicans I would be happy to do so, and will agree or disagree with you on a case by case basis.
My personal history on this board has shown me to be a fool and in error countless times. Nobody has ever held it against me.
Look, you wanna believe that, be my guest.
I said what I meant and I meant what I said. It was obviously not clear enough for people not to immediately take it as a personal slight to their individual character.
If you believe in the conservative philosophy and you live your life by it, if the words from the people on the TV and in Congress could be your words exactly, then yeah, I probably wouldn’t trust you.
But I don’t assume that Joe Sixpack or Joe Doper, as the case may be, is like that. IF you are, then I don’t trust you and I think you are selfish and your arguments come from a selfish place. I stand by it. You are the one who identifies who you are, not me.
stoid
I believe that because it has taken you THIS long to finally backpedal. You could have clarified what you “really” meant a long time ago, and you didn’t.
You know, your problem is that you are NOT very clear when expressing these ideas. And then you talk yourself into a corner, and when called on it, you get huffy. Your OP said you didn’t trust Conservatives/Republicans. What did you expect us to think? Did you expect us to assume you meant “I don’t trust Republicans/Conservatives, except you”?
And then when I took it “personally”, you told me that this was proof that I was selfish! What an idiotic thing to say! And then when you are further called on your idiocy, you backpedal, backpedal, backpedal…
My mom lives the Conservative Philosophy - she is a BIG Geo. W. fan. (My mom - you know, the grandmotherly type who has given thousands of her dollars to needy people, and dedicates her time to the local soup kitchen?) So I guess you don’t “trust” her. That’s fine, I’m sure she would find you an exceedingly irritating person to associate with. (But if you were hungry, or needy, she’d probably help you out and give you money…)
But of course, she’s the “selfish” one, and the one not to be “trusted”. And you’re the one with the superior and selfless ideology. Oh yeah…
I don’t think you even know what anyone else believes. Your OP is full of assumptions. You are certainly not in a position to judge anyone’s heart. But you start this whole thread pronouncing the superiority of one ideology (yours, of course) compared to another ideology. (Those evil Conservatives.) Pretty presumputous.
You can decide to not trust whoever you don’t want to trust. And other people can decide that you have half-baked ideas.
Stoidela, I identify myself as a liberal, and I used to think what your OP said. But many years ago I had the good fortune to become friends with someone who performed amazing acts of personal kindness & charity, up to & including sleeping in homeless shelters with the homeless, and who did this on a regular basis, but who was as right-wing as you can get on just about any issue you care to name.
Since then, I have been more open to the conservative side of things. I at least listen to what they have to say, because they sometimes make good points.
Two issues come to mind:
1 - Rent control. The typically liberal viewpoint here is that this is a good thing. But even when I was living in a rent-controlled apartment in the Bronx I thought it was an amazingly lousy idea. For the answer why, one need only go to the South Bronx, at least a few years ago before the govt began to put up new housing, and look around. In some places, there wasn’t a single building left standing in sight. Because their owners abandoned them or deliberately burned them to the ground to collect on the insurance, because they could no longer make any money from the properties. As of today, there is still a tight housing market in NYC, because very few developers will build there. Ask them why, and they will all uniformly say “rent control”.
2 - Graduated income tax. Don’t go ballistic, just listen. I’m still very much in favor of one, but conservatives have an interesting point here: it harms urban areas. How? Well, the cost of living in or near any major urban area is much higher than in a rural area. So salaries are higher, on average. These higher salaries then get taxed at a higher rate because of the graduated income tax. The net result is that urban residents wind up sending a disproportionate amount of their income to Washington, simply because they have to make more to live where they live. Back in '90 or so, when the Democratic congress insisted on putting in a 31% bracket for high earners, some conservative columnist in NY (I don’t remember who or where this was, sorry) came up with the point that something like half the people who would be paying this higher bracket lived within a 50-mile radius of the Empire State building. In the long run this drains cities of the capital they need to maintain their infrastructure and to provide for their own needs. And so this can be cited as part of the reason why urban areas are suffering the way they are these days.
I remain liberal because I don’t think conservatives really do stand up for individual freedom. Your typical conservative was not on the front lines of the civil rights movement. If I get pulled over by a state trooper and harassed, the card I have in my wallet telling me how to act to stay out of trouble comes from the ACLU. I think conservatives are completely useless when it comes to really defending our freedoms.
Scylla, you raise some good questions. But, let me clarify how I feel a bit…I am not saying that this company is horrible, nasty, and evil and treats its employees like shit. Actually, I am quite well-paid, get good benefits, have pretty interesting things to work on, and such; we just have to put up with a lot of bureaucratic BS (and the kind of uncertainty and stress that comes from layoffs and constant budget squeezes).
So what I am saying is that, like organizational structures of its size, it is inevitably bureaucratic and this bureaucracy is…I can’t imagine…much better than any other large bureaucracy (such as a government one would be). Maybe government bureaucracy is ten times worse, but I just draw a complete blank in trying to visualize this…It is like imagining something bigger than uncountable infinity.
I think to a large extent, my company has always had these problems, although admittedly they are probably worse and morale is also worse now in an era when there a more layoffs, budget cuts, etc. Historically, the company that I work for has been considered to be one that treats its employees much better than most. I have heard about other large companies that manage to do somewhat better in specific bureaucratic aspects, although I am not sure whether or not they are significantly better overall.
I don’t think I really want to go on record at this point as to the name of the company (as I didn’t choose me username here for maximum anonymity), but you have probably learned certain things about me like the state in which I live and suffice it to say I work for a company with one of the most recognizable and trusted brand names in the world.
J:
Your reticence to name the company is understandable.
If you think your Company has a lotta red tape, you may be right. You can never entirely free yourself of it.
However, comparing a private company and the Government in this matter is like comparing a leaky pipe to Niagara Falls.
If you doubt me, just get a taste by visiting a state Motor Vehicles Department some time, if you have the courage.
Or try filing your taxes (and the IRS is relatively efficient.)
scylla:
still waiting for those profound reasons why being willing to risk one’s life in defense of one’s country makes one conservatie.
oh yeah. Re the OP:
I do not hate conservatives or Republicans, though I wish the party was more consistent in applying the philosophy.
Spiritus:
Us Republicans/Conservatives are more bloodthirsty, and like to kill people more than democrats as well as being untrustworthy. Happy?
On the rent control tangent, I’ve read that another result is that it encourages renters to rent to tennants that are not likely to stay long, as that’s the only way they can raise rents to keep up with the market. This of course is a bad thing for the neighborhood.
Basically, I see most government regulation as giving the Law of Unintended Consequences a silver platter invitation to wreak havoc with the very things you are trying to help. I can’t imagine how this possibly makes me more inherently dishonest than people who care only that an effort is made to help, regardless of the efficacy of that effort.
Nope. I personally love the taste of blood and often have to resist my entirely natural urge to kill people while driving (and I use the term in teh sense “not moving”) home on I-95.
First you damn C/R folks try to claim a monopoly on protecting freedom, now you want to take bloodthirst and homocidal rage, too.
I dare you to come over here and say that!!!
Well,
We do have the guns. 
Well we are selfish. Wasn’t that one of the premises of this thread? Incidentally, we’ve got truth, justice and the American Way as well. You can have Mom and apple pie.
What makes you think I still want your mom?
Her apple pie wasn’t that good, anyway.
Stoid, you say you don’t “trust” Republicans, then go on to boast that the liberals are the party of inclusion. I must say that you certainly haven’t exhibited a very open-minded attitude lately.
As others have pointed out, true altruism is in your heart. It has nothing to do with the “R” or “D” or “I” stamped on your forehead. A social program to feed the poor, for instance, may sound like a no-brainer in theory, but be detrimental in practice. Take the example of food stamps and subsidized housing. It sounds like a really altruistic idea to put food in children’s bellies and a roof over their head. However, what no one thought through was that you have also inadvertently created a system that provides an INCENTIVE (and little downside) for having MORE children? But wait! That wasn’t your intention! You just wanted to help them. And soon instead of having 2000 little kids to feed, you have 3000. Then you have 6000. And 14 year olds are becoming parents because that means an apartment of their own! And your budget is through the roof and the taxpayers are getting pissed and finally someone (no doubt a Republican) has to come in and say STOP! You aren’t helping these people! You are ultimately hurting them. And you are also hurting the taxpayers. Because it’s patently unfair to keep asking them, who incidentally have an average of 2.1 kids, to continue supporting non-working parents who have an average of 4.3 kids.
And the funny thing is it’s the Republican who looks like the heartless bastard.
The above example was highly exaggerated, but remember that there are always two sides. And both have merit. The key is to strike a balance.