Why improve when you can sue? Maybe Johnny can't read cuz teacher has teh dumb.

The BBQ Pit
61

[QUOTE=magellan01]
How are the examples you gave examples of cultural bias? Sounds more like “household” bias, which will change from home to home.
[/QUOTE]

How many households = a culture? Every single person I interact with (or more importantly, my daughter interacts with) on a regular basis calls animal cookies “cookies” and granola bars “candy”.

But anyway, I think you’re missing the point for the detail.

The point: the test is designed to measure language skills.

The detail: the test in fact measures vocabulary, a small subset of language skills.

The other test is designed to measure the child’s ability to follow verbal directions. Again, it in fact is useless without vocabulary.

Vocabulary is highly dependent on culture.

This wouldn’t be so bad if the tests were marked and labeled as being vocabulary tests, since that is part of what they test. But these are marketed, scored and paid for by the state as being unbiased language ability tests, suitable for children of any background. Obviously, they’re not.

Without looking at the tags, what would you reach for if I asked you to “give the baby natto”? One two or three? Would your (presumed) ignorance of natto be a good reason for me to believe you don’t have the cognitive ability to follow directions?

Obviously, these examples are not identical to the suspected bias on standardized tests for adults. I presented them as simple, easy to grok examples of how a test can be rendered invalid because what it claims to be testing for isn’t all it tests for. Certainly, I agree that a teacher teaching in a diverse school environment should indeed be able to pass a test that is itself diverse. I’m not trying to argue against the OP, because I actually agree.

62

[QUOTE=Rubystreak]
I think they’re a bullshit way to evaluate a person for a teaching job, since they don’t actually test how good a teacher you are.
[/QUOTE]

Alone, stadardized testing is inadequate, but it should not be the only method of evaluating candidates. Grouped with other methods of evaluation, I think it has its place, at least in setting a minum requirment for knowledge, probelm solvnig, etc.

63

[QUOTE=magellan01]
Actually, no. I am not of that mind. Particularly the “all” part, which for some reason you try to ascribe to me, though I don’t see where you get that from my post.
[/quote]
Thast would be where you said

with no qualifications. And, I did not claim you said “all” except in invoking the idea of private is always better than public which your sentence did imply.

Right. All those private colleges like the University of Michigan and Penn State and the University of California.

I’ve got no problem with trying new ideas. I just think that if someone actually believes that a private system would work better than the public system, they should go out and do it rather than looking for tax monies to try it out. The Catholic diocese acoss the country did that.

As to charter schools, while they have open enrollment and state paid tuition, so they get to proclaim themselves “publi” but they are often run by organizations that have no responsibility to the voters, so I am not sure that “private” does not better describe them. And, after ten years, or so, theyt are really doing no better than the actual public schools in terms of student performance–while suffering really bad administration and failing financial audits, so I am less than overwhelmed with that effort. You want to try new things? Then let’s see some new things to try–that are not already failing.

64

[QUOTE=magellan01]
Huh? I was simply using it as an example of a test that can determine one’s future. If you wind up with a 950, your chances of getting iinto Yale, Harvard or Stamford just dropped considerably. I’m not sure what you find confusiing or are objecting to. Could you clarify. I was using it just like a test like an MCAT. That help?
[/QUOTE]
Hm. Well, if I misunderstood you, then I certainly apologize.

[QUOTE=magellan01]
I love it. Teachers complaining that one test can ruin their careers. Have they heard of the SATs?
[/QUOTE]
My issue is that you draw a connection there between teachers complaining and the SAT, with an implication of hypocrisy. I don’t see the connection between teachers complaining and the SAT, or why you’re giddy over it. Are you saying it’s inherently unfair that the SAT’s can “ruin their career?” In that case, why take delight in teachers making the same argument? With your addition of “Damn, I feel sorry for the kids that these idiots are supposed to be teaching,” you pretty much tell me that you’re not on the teachers’ side here.

I’m objecting to the “Ha ha - a taste of your own medicine!” attitude, as if teachers have any say over SATs, MCATs, ACTs, or even state tests.

Well, that’s what I got out of it, at least. Could be wrong. In which case, I’m going to sue you because your original post was culturally biased.

65

Those who grew up in western Pennsylvania would likely hear about the annual Three Rivers Regatta on television and radio every summer for a couple of solid months and figure out that it has something to do with boats.

Even so, we have not seen the actual question to know whether it required anyone to know what a regatta is.

I’ve never in my life heard of anybody calling a granola bar candy. Animal cookies and animal crackers are different items. One has frosting, one does not.

66

[QUOTE=WhyNot]
The picture was something like this, although it didn’t move. Problem is, in our house, we don’t eat cookies like that. This animal cracker or these graham crackers are “cookies” here.
[/QUOTE]
Interesting… It makes me wonder, if we can’t even come up with an image of a cookie that will be universally recognized as a cookie, what hope is there for a whole test that’s fair to everyone? At what point do you say, this is the most generic picture of a cookie that is possible to produce, and the granola-munchin’ hippie children are just out of luck?

Although I did notice that an analogy using the word “coven” was objected to because the occult association would confuse some kids… maybe the hippie children have the advantage there so it all evens out. :wink:

67

[QUOTE=Sarahfeena]

But my thought is more this…does the mere fact that baseball is mentioned in the question make it culturally biased, or does it have to be deeper than that?
[/QUOTE]

I’d say not necessarily. For instance, if the teacher regularly mentioned general baseball facts in his lessons, using them to jog people’s memories during the test, then it doesn’t count as extracultural information in my book.

But if he’s testing people based on knowledge they could only acquire outside of his classroom, then that’s not right. The Cubs question would kinda throw me off because I don’t follow any sports (in the back of my mind, as I type this, I’m thinking, “I thought the Cubs were a football team”). Even if the answer was right in their in the stems, I’d still get nervous because that information is foreign to me.

68

[QUOTE=Giraffe]
No worries. And that wasn’t a warning, just a friendly request. (Warnings will have the word warning in there somewhere, either in the text or message title, e.g. “Mod warning:”)
[/QUOTE]
So that’s a warning then, right? Since you used the words…

[voice in my left ear]: Stop it! Stop it!

[voice in my right ear]: No, go ahead. Giraffe’s a good egg.

[voice in my left ear]: No, he isn’t. He hates you.

[voice in my right ear]: He doesn’t hate you. You’re just paranoid.

…and I’m just Marsha’s younger brother! Marsha, Marsha, Marsha!

69

[QUOTE=Plynck]
And yet, instead of pitting the lawyer as an instance of recreational outrage, you blame the educational system and insult anyone who lives in Massachusetts.
[/quote]
Reading for comprehension isn’t your strong suit, Sport. I’ll type more slowly this time. I said, with bolding added for additional crunchy goodness:

Obvious lack of introspection and taking responsibility for yourself =/= blaming the educational system. Some folks =/= anyone. Furthermore, while the lawyer may be a shitheel, he still needs a client to represent, in this case the three teachers forming the ‘class’ on whose behalf he has filed.

One more time, I didn’t use the words all, every, or any other synonym, thereof. Some, in this case, is three of which I’m aware, and any others who decide to take a seat on that legal short bus. The group receiving my derision is the whiny ones who claim they’re not being treated fairly when things don’t go as they’d like, when instead, they should focus on self-improvement. If that’s not sufficiently precise, then have a hot cup of Fuckoff, my treat.

Given my southern heritage, I’ll just say, “Well, bless your heart.” :stuck_out_tongue:

70

[QUOTE=WhyNot]
How many households = a culture? Every single person I interact with (or more importantly, my daughter interacts with) on a regular basis calls animal cookies “cookies” and granola bars “candy”.
[/QUOTE]

That doesn’t mean that other things (chocolate chips, oreos, etc.) are also cookies. Or do we need a logic test here? :smiley:

And how many households do make a “culture”? Certainly not your one.

[QUOTE=WhyNot]
Without looking at the tags, what would you reach for if I asked you to “give the baby natto”? One two or three? Would your (presumed) ignorance of natto be a good reason for me to believe you don’t have the cognitive ability to follow directions?

Obviously, these examples are not identical to the suspected bias on standardized tests for adults. I presented them as simple, easy to grok examples of how a test can be rendered invalid because what it claims to be testing for isn’t all it tests for. Certainly, I agree that a teacher teaching in a diverse school environment should indeed be able to pass a test that is itself diverse. I’m not trying to argue against the OP, because I actually agree.
[/QUOTE]

This must be a whoosh.

You use “natoo”, something that is clearly not anywhere near being in the mainstream of American culture, as a way to support your point that calling a chocolate chip a cookie is “biased”???!!! You simply must be joking.

Assessing the cognitive ability to follow direction will be based, in part, on a direction being issued, right? That, in turn will necessitate the use of language, right? That will necessitate the use of vocabulary, right. And you take issue with a chocolate chip used as an icon for a cookie? Do you really think that there are children in swaths of homes in America that suffer from this knowledge? If so, I’ll have to stridently disagree.

Look, I’m sure that there are words on any test that a particualr kid in a particular household might not know, but come on, a chocolate chip is a cookie? Yikes! Sounds like you shold get your kid out more.

71

[QUOTE=Sarahfeena]
This reminds me of an incident when I was in high school. My social sciences teacher was the baseball coach, and he worded an exam question like this:

“Which of the two Native American tribes we studied lived where the Cubs have spring training?”

[/QUOTE]

Along similar lines, I once had a question on an economics test that went something like, “Why does Scotty Pippen earn more per year than a surgeon?” My answer was, “Who the fuck is Scotty Pippen?” Apparently, a basketball player of some sort. I’d never heard of him.

They don’t play baseball in Alaska?

72

[QUOTE=Miller]

They don’t play baseball in Alaska?
[/QUOTE]
Not in March.

73

[QUOTE=silenus]
I agree. Most teacher tests are a joke because they don’t and can’t test what really counts. OTOH, the California Basic Educational Skills Tests(CBEST) for teachers is set at the 8th grade level! And when I took it 20 years ago, there were people in the room on their 5th or 6th go-around with it. Personally, I don’t want those people in my profession.

[/QUOTE]

I know someone trying to be a high school teacher who failed the CBEST for Math 3 times. I think the test worked. He passed on his fourth try. His contract didn’t get picked up after probation, so the system works. (And the test didn’t seem that hard.)

I can almost see SATs being a problem, since lots of kids taking them may not have had the opportunity to get out of a very local area. I do agree though that those who want a good score should read. In any case, a teacher’s test is given to those who have graduated from four years of college. I’m having a hard time seeing why anyone should be culturally ignorant in such blatant ways at this point.

If a state is getting enough people passing the test to fill the openings, I have no problem with making the test hard. There are other screens for evaluating teaching ability.

74

[QUOTE=Miller]
Along similar lines, I once had a question on an economics test that went something like, “Why does Scotty Pippen earn more per year than a surgeon?” My answer was, “Who the fuck is Scotty Pippen?” Apparently, a basketball player of some sort. I’d never heard of him.
[/QUOTE]
I agree that it’s stupid to name a specific player instead of saying “a star basketball player.” The point of the question would remain the same, and you wouldn’t have the problem you had.

[QUOTE=Miller]
They don’t play baseball in Alaska?
[QUOTE=asterion]
Not in March.
[/QUOTE]

[/QUOTE]
Right. Not in March. I guess you have to have enough baseball knowledge to know 1) That the Cubs are a baseball team, and that 2) Spring training starts early in the spring, in order to deduce that this is most likely not done in Alaska.

75

[QUOTE=tomndebb]
Thast would be where you said with no qualifications. And, I did not claim you said “all” except in invoking the idea of private is always better than public which your sentence did imply.
[/QUOTE]

:rolleyes: Here we go again. I didn’t say you “said” I "said “all”. I said you tried to “ascribe” it to me. Feel free to check. Which you did, and evidently admit, and now attempt to justify because my sentence “implied” it. Please show me how that is the case. And that your reading of it is the most likely.

[QUOTE=tomndebb]
Right. All those private colleges like the University of Michigan and Penn State and the University of California.
[/QUOTE]

Yes, there are good public universities. I never said otherwise. But if you want to argue that the elite schools are not private, well, let me go get some popcorn and get ready for a good comedy skit. But more important, I’d say that schools like the ones you mention are so good because they know they are competing with the likes of Harvard and Columbia. They have set the bar. I’ll look forward to your showing that to not be the case, as well.

[QUOTE=tomndebb]
I’ve got no problem with trying new ideas. I just think that if someone actually believes that a private system would work better than the public system, they should go out and do it rather than looking for tax monies to try it out. The Catholic diocese acoss the country did that.
[/QUOTE]

So, while private schools can, in fact, prove successful in their mission, you want only those families who can pay the additional funds for the private schools to be able to avail themselves of the opportunity for a better education for their children. I’m sure the hundreds of thouseands (millions?) of families that are stuck having to send their kid to what is acknowledged to be a failiing school would be gratified to hear that you don’t stand in the way of them spending the $10,000 - $25,000 they don’t have on a private school education.

[QUOTE=tomndebb]
You want to try new things? Then let’s see some new things to try–that are not already failing.
[/QUOTE]

Some have failed, sure. Some do amazingly well. I’ve directed you to the Thernstroms’ book No Excuses before, in an attempt to educate you. I’ll do so again. They (Abigail and Stephen) show success in, if I recall correctly, Harlem, Newark and Gary, as well as elsewhere. A teacher friend of mine is borrowing my copy now and finds it quite interesting. He says it is “at the same time troubling and encouraging.”

And I’m all for new things. If you have any ideas, I’d love to hear them. Seriously. This problem undermines much of what this country stands for. The upward mobility from one generation to another that has helped define much of our history was due in enormous part to the lower class children (largely immigrants) using education as a vault into a better life. So, please, what NEW ideas do you have?

76

[QUOTE=ArizonaTeach]
Hm. Well, if I misunderstood you, then I certainly apologize.
[/QUOTE]

No need, but thanks.

[QUOTE=ArizonaTeach]
My issue is that you draw a connection there between teachers complaining and the SAT, with an implication of hypocrisy. I don’t see the connection between teachers complaining and the SAT, or why you’re giddy over it. Are you saying it’s inherently unfair that the SAT’s can “ruin their career?” In that case, why take delight in teachers making the same argument? With your addition of “Damn, I feel sorry for the kids that these idiots are supposed to be teaching,” you pretty much tell me that you’re not on the teachers’ side here.
[/QUOTE]

I’ll explain again: I find it ironic that teachers would complain that so much was riding on a test. It’s ironic because tests are used everday to assess the competnece of the kids they teach. Some of those tests, like finals, can have a lot rifing on it. The most blaring example, I thought, was the SAT, simply because it is often the single most importartant test to a high-schooler, one that can mean the difference between a a first choice school and a second, third, or fourth.

Hope that clarifies.

[QUOTE=ArizonaTeach]
In which case, I’m going to sue you because your original post was culturally biased.
[/QUOTE]

:eek:

77

Wow.

As a hispanic woman, I take offense at that implication.

78

[QUOTE=Una Persson]
You keep saying that but you’ve offered no cites. Can you show me how math problems were “biased against people of color?” Not against social class, but specifically against people of color?
[/QUOTE]

Please note what I said, specifically - that the SATs were changed, in part, because they were perceived to be biased against people of color, among other groups.

To back up that particular claim let me offer these cites.

cite #1

cite #2 (Note: this cite mentions a perceived racial bias, but claims that it’s lost in the noise of the socio-economic bias data. I still think it’s a good cite for the fact that the SATs were perceived to be biased against people of color.)

cite #3
And these are just three pages that come up with a Google search for “racial bias SAT.”

Again, I’m not trying to explain how math tests can be biased based on race - I’ve never looked into the studies deeply enough to see that explaination, so I can’t explain what I don’t understand, myself. So I can only provide part of the cites you’d asked for Una Persson.

79

In my outlook, everything is biased.

If a test mentioned waves in the ocean, or the tide…is that biased against people who don’t live on the coast?

If a kid comes from a poor inner-city school and didnt learn as much does that mean the test was biased against them and the test should be made easier?

There can be bias in everything depending how you look at it. A certain standard needs to be set and we need to keep with it.

(I have the same opinion for physical testing of law enforcement/fire fighter/life guards and such…if a guy needs to run/lift a certain amount, a woman should have to too…same line of thinking i believe)

80

[QUOTE=magellan01]
:rolleyes: Here we go again.
[/quote]
Yes. He we go with you making every discussion a personal feud.

Get back to me with the specifics of the successes. I’m not forking out money to support your favorite authors and the book is not in my library. If you cannot actually provide evidence of your claim, (or even specifiy what your claim might be beyond waving around the word “vouchers”), then don’t lay it out.