The blind bleeding the blind. Charge! Aloha
Either the Constitution is an anti-democratic document, your claim, or it’s not. If the answer varies based on the factors external to the document itself - that is, the decisions of state legislatures - then your claim can be shown to be false.
The Constitution neither mandates a perfect, modern democracy (since it leaves the question of who may vote up to the states, beyond “The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government”), nor is it anti-democratic. It is an incomplete framework for a democratic government.
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I think the Founding Fathers are turning over in their graves at what’s going on today. While they enjoyed their wealth, they were also men of mind and appreciated education for its own sake. We’ve become a meritocracy of money in the world’s most powerful kleptocracy.
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That’s fine, but unrelated.
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But it does say who chooses who you can vote for.
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The framers themselves chose who one can vote for, by writing requirements for being a candidate for President, the House, and the Senate into the Constitution. Notably, those requirements make no reference to ethnicity, gender, or property ownership:
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I disagee.
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Really? Consider, say, the song “Old Dan Tucker”. It’s not democratic, but it’s certainly not anti-democratic.
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Alohahaha. Things have changed since 1840. That said, Hawaii is a special case, the only state not on the continent consisting of eight island counties. In Kauai, the CEO is known as the The Mayor of Kauai and everyone knows him or someone who does. He is responsible to his constituents. If wasn’t, he’d be out on his ear. We can talk about it elsewhere if you like. 
Aloha
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The 1840 Hawaii Constitution is an anti-democratic document: it reserves government power to an unelected, hereditary monarch.
The Constitution of Turkey is a democratic document: it creates a government of elected representatives, selected by all citizens over the age of 18.
The United States Constitution is neither. It’s an incomplete framework for a republic, that devolves a crucial component of a democracy - universal suffrage - to state legislatures.
Whatever. I go by its fruits. It’s my belief. You don’t like it, don’t quote me.
And an open minded study of American History will show you how that has really worked.
Well, that’s it for a while. We’re way off the OP and I have things to do. See you later. Aloha
Nothing? You couldn’t think of one thing in the Constitution to point to?
Wow, what a let-down. Guess it’s easier to throw around words like kleptocracy than to back them up.
This is Great Debates, not IMHO.
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And an open minded study of American History will show you how that has really worked.
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So, by “The Constitution is an anti-democratic document” you meant “The United States wasn’t a modern democracy with universal suffrage at the time the Constitution was ratified”. Try to choose your words more carefully, if you wish to be understood.
The wicked flee when no man pursueth: but the righteous are bold as a lion.
I like how the non-democratic Hawaiian constitution has changed and led to a political paradise but the older, democratic US constitution has led to a kleptocracy. Neat feat.
At least it was a constitutional monarchy.
You actually support my point, we now live in two distinct nations much like we did before the civil war. I don’t think we really share the same values or culture.
You could do worse for 1840.
One major difference is that the nations are no longer geographical regions like the North and the South, but instead urban centers and rural areas. That precludes a secession.
I agree. I attribute it to the agreeable climate and Aloha here. All the water, sun, fish and fruit you need, on the beach. Kauai is hoovering tourist dollars now and pouring them into the local infrastructure. Sustainable after the sure-to-come fall.
Again, 1840. It’s very egalitarian now.
And who is we? No snark here. For whom do you think you speak?
Aloha
The Constitution is an anti-democratic document: it’s meant to take certain issues away from the immediate reach of the electorate.
I mean, I see nothing wrong with this, but I have no illusions about it, and I don’t have to buy into moonbattery to hold this view.
Nevertheless, the United States is and always was intended to be a democratic republic. As opposed to an aristocratic republic, like the old Venetian Republic, where only the merchant-princes of the Golden Book got to vote. The U.S. Constitution forbids titles of nobility for that reason.
Good intentions, but … for the first half of the 19th century, corporations were held on a very short leash by their state charters and the idea of corporations as people would have been laughed at, north and south. Folks back then were well aware that large concentrations of capital, by their nature, were a corrosive, corruptive and subversive influence on political process. I’m sure I don’t need to point out that is hardly the case today where corporations are our merchant princes who own the govt and greed is institutionalized as a virtue.
The Constitution effectively marginalized the vast poor majority and placed the small well-to-do minority firmly in power. Is that Democracy? I don’t think so.
Aloha
Sorry, I meant that the two different America’s dont’ share the same values and culture. When I go to Arkansas to visit my in-laws, I feel very much like a foreigner; much more so than when I’m in western Europe. In the county where my in-laws live, alcohol is illegal, people talk openly about the rapture and the anti-christ, and at a highschool football game we went to, everyone stopped and prayed evertime one of the players got hurt. I mean everyone: the players and cheerleaders on both teams, the people in the stands, it was truly weird (and I’m currently in Afghanistan, so I know a thing or two about being surrounded by fundamentalists). Also, the football stadium was nice, I mean really nice, but the school itself looked pretty run down and I know it is a poor community. Not only that, but people walk around carrying guns and camoflage is a perfectly acceptable fabric for wearing around town.
It all adds up to a very different culture than the one I live in. The common beliefs held in communities like that are not just different than those held by my community, but they are often antithetical to our beliefs.
Cynic? No. You just have a bizarre and wildly ignorant view of modern government.
The US Constitution is not written so that every single American gets enough representation to have their own way. It is written as a complex series of checks and balances to ensure that no single leader gets too much of his own way. People bemoan the polarized politics in DC or think the recent debacle with the government shut down is the system not working. It is the system working exactly as designed. Countries like Syria and North Korea don’t have these problems.
If anyone thinks American politics was any less heated or polarized in the time of Washington or Lincoln or Kennedy I would urge them to read up on the subject.
According to a recent poll, America is less polarized than one might expect. Most Americans poll as moderate while a relatively small but vocal few lie on the extremes. Unfortunately it’s those extremes that make for good ratings for the 24 hour news channels.
I’ve seen polling data that nearly half of Americans believe that “God created humans in their present form within the last 10,000 years.” In U.S., 46% Hold Creationist View of Human Origins
That’s a third world level of ignorance there and I’m willing to bet a lot of them live in the part of the country often called red state America. You pretty much can’t find these kinds of attitudes anywhere else in the developed world. I don’t see how we bridge this gap in our understanding between these two cultures. I certainly don’t want to compromise with them and say, agree that the world is 20,000 years old, just to keep the peace. Do we let them pull us down, or do we try to contain them as much as possible and create defacto seperate countries within the US? I think its clear what we’ve done.
Much of “Red State America” can barely be considered “the developed world”.
That’s for sure. North and South really are two different worlds. Hawaii doesn’t really have to deal with that divide. We’re very insular here yet quite cosmopolitan in our acceptance of individual differences.
Aloha
I long ago unsubscribed from the American Myth of Government I was brought up on. You, obviously, have bought it hook, line and sinker. That’s all I’ll have to say to you. I no longer attempt to teach pigs to sing. Urban Dictionary: Teaching a pig to sing
Aloha