No, the Republicans very much want to destroy PUBLIC education, and not in order to take credit for solving problems, but in order to justify getting rid of it entirely. They don’t mind private education… it’s all well and good to have their kids getting a private religious education and preparing them to be leaders of tomorrow etc. It’s the other kids that don’t need an education. Did you notice that politicians never send their own kids to public school? They have no personal investment in seeing public schools succeed. But they quite like the idea of using the failure of public schools as an excuse to force through legislation that would force taxpayers to subsidize their kids’ private education.
This is quite true for Democrats as well.
For that matter, it’s true for District of Columbia public school teachers, the majority of which, if they live in the district, send their children to private school.
Hang on a second. Skutir, are you saying that the homeschooling movement was started by evil Republicans? Or just that homeschooling is a vast conspiracy to undermine the public schools? I would like a clear explanation of your views regarding homeschooling (in all its flavors), please. And also what you teach (elementary, HS, subject?). Just so we can get this clear…*
And it’s been a long, long time since Dem politicians sent their kids to public schools.
*Disclaimer: I am neither a Republican or a homeschooler, though I reserve the right to become one later on in life. 
Bricker, and Mr. Moto, that Austin, TX, or Ames, IA, both pretty prosperous university and government towns with a tradition of quality public education and presumably a population base that thinks education is important, may or may not spend less than does Washington, D.C., on a per capita basis, hardly compels a conclusion that the D.C. system is adequately funded. The needs are different. The things that need to be done to make the Washington public schools even adequate are legion. The resources available to do those things are paltry. The DC school system has been a disaster as long as I can remember. To hold it up as the typical example of all public schools is simply dishonest and a disingenuous attempt to load the question.
No, school testing and funding cuts are an evil scheme to undermine public schools, in order to justify funding private religious education, especially through vouchers.
I work in higher ed, and know a lot of K-12 teachers.
Colleges and universities in Washington include the following:
[ul]American University
The Catholic University of America
Gallaudet University
George Washington University
Georgetown University
Howard University
Southeastern University
Trinity College
University of the District of Columbia[/ul]
Huh?
The national average in 2002 was $6,835 per pupil per year. Washington, DC spent $9,933. That’s 45% above the national average. How on earth can that level of funding be inadequate?
I’ll tell you how. Through massive fiscal mismanagement, including instances of actual fraud and theft. There’s never enough money if the teachers and administrators are stealing it all.
Meanwhile, Ballou High School in Anacostia is seeing shootings and riots, as usual. Also in the fall, the high school was closed for weeks while it was cleaned of mercury contamination. Seems some students had found some mercury in a science lab and decided to play with the shiny stuff.
They didn’t know better, having, of course, only sixth to eighth grade educations. But the idiot of a science teacher hadn’t recognized that there was no legitimate use for liquid mercury in a school science lab in the year 2003, and just kept the stuff around.
You can make excuses for a system that tolerates this, if you want to. You can say that me wanting to reform it makes me hostile to it. But I have to ask, can you look at it, and say you’re not hostile to it?
OK, change my comment that the DC schools are not adequately funded to funded or managed and add that it has a just awful student population. How does that make the DC system typical or illustrative of the general run of public schools?
Any body, with or without and agenda, can beat up or the horrible example.
You can’t fairly argue (or given this forum, bitch) that the Washington, D.C., schools are a fair sample of American public schools any more than you can fairly argue that Adolf Hitler is a typical German, that Charlie Manson is a typical Californian or that Little Annie Coulter is a typical Republican. My point is, and remains, that the question was loaded, dishonest and disingenuous. If you want to argue that the public education system need to be changed argue that but, using the DC system to demonstrate a need for change throughout the public schools across the country, or the superiority of parochial schools (which get to pick their students and require extra sacrifice from parents and kick anybody who does not play the game according to their rules into the public system) or home schooled kids just is not a persuasive or useful argument.
You surely are not arguing that Washington, D.C., is a college town or the order of Ames or Austin. You surely are not arguing that the kids in the DC public schools are predominantly the children of bureaucrats. You know what DC is. So do I. Out side a few exclusive enclaves it is a vast slum stuffed to the gills with the underemployed and uneducated. It is the shining example of a town gone to Hell in a hand basket. That is, of course, a disgrace but it is another argument all together.
All I’m asking for here is a fair argument without strawmen.
Well, first of all… cite?
Secondly… wul, strip my gears and call me shiftless, **Mr. Moto ** has done caught us out. That’s it, my fellow educators, the party’s over. We might as well get rid of the champagne fountain and marijuana dispensing machines in the teacher’s lounge, and get ready to pay back the millions of dollars we’ve all embezzled over the years, while writing it all off as “office supplies.”
Mr. Moto, if you honestly believe the statement I quote at the top of this post, then you are not only one of the greatest fools I have ever even *heard * of, but you plainly don’t know a thing about how school funds are handled… a simple enough trick if you work in a school, have any contact with a school, or even attend a stinkin’ PTA meeting! One might as well accuse the garbage collectors, dogcatchers, and meter readers of stealing money from the city’s bank accounts!
I will enlighten you. Only the persons in a given school district who actually have access to the accounts are capable of stealing any actual money. Do you honestly think all the teachers and administrators can access the district’s accounts? Hah? Sure, I’d love to write my own paychecks, but it ain’t gonna happen. The most I’m ever going to manage to steal is staples, paperclips, and maybe some unauthorized Xerox copies. If I were feeling ambitious, maybe I could quietly boost some office furniture! But no, not now that Mr. Moto is in town! Might as well put the cuffs on myself and come along quietly…
Mr. Moto, I have read your tirades across two different posts now, and I grow convinced that you are not interested in any opinion but your own. Perhaps you are a troll. Perhaps you honestly believe that large and complicated social problems have simple, uncomplicated answers that can be easily dished out by a good, firm-handed politician.
You apparently believe that every school, everywhere, should be treated and funded the same, and that every school, everywhere, is in serious trouble. You apparently believe that all school administrators and teachers are incompetent at best, malicious thieves at worst. You apparently believe that there is no real difference between one school and another, one region and another, or one CHILD and another, and that any failure to turn children into responsible, educated adults lies firmly at the feet of the schools, as far as I can determine. Lastly, you SEEM to believe that private education can educate everyone as easily and efficiently – more so, even – than private schools, and at less expense, and that there will, for some reason, be no mismanagement of funds or failures once the schools are all privatized.
Perhaps I am wrong in my assessments. I have no doubt that you will let me know, one way or the other.
But if I’m right… man, you and Bush deserve each other.
How 'bout this, **Master Wang-Ka. Good enough proof of corruption for ya?
Former teachers’ union president gets 9 years in embezzlement scheme.
This should really piss you off, since it’s union money being pilfered.
That’s just the latest big one. There are regular stories of abuse of the office credit cards by Board of Education employees. The board hasn’t passed an audit in years.
It’s so damn bad that Mayor Anthony Williams, an African-American Democrat, is calling for vouchers himself.
I work in DC, and live in its suburbs. I’m not picking some hypothetical out of my ass. These problems are in my backyard. They’re not a strawman to the folks living here who have to live with the societal fallout from these failing schools.
And no, I don’t think for a second that everyone is helping themselves to a slice of the pie. But enough people are that it’s a problem. Can’t you admit that?
OK, Mr. Moto, if you insist on blathering on about the DC schools and are determined to hold that system up as the standard public school system to put up against church schools and home schooling, do I get to go pick out the worst parochial school in the country or the most ignorant home schooled kid in the Northern Hemisphere to run against the DC system in a test match? If all you want to do is rant about one school system in one town you can’t at the same time compare it to the best of the alternate systems. No fair. Not an argument. It’s just irrational venting. I suppose that’s what this forum is for but it doesn’t help your credibility much.
Fine, then.
We can turn our attention to the public school system of Clairton, Pennsylvania, if you want. I’ll choose Clairton because my parents live there, and my aunt teaches there.
Clairton has, for many reasons, horrible schools. Absolutely horrible. While the students there aren’t trapped in the morass of violence that plague many DC public schools, they hardly leave schoool prepared for college or the workforce. Most will slog through life in low-paying jobs if they’re lucky. The others will end up on welfare or in jail.
I’ve asked before, how politically aware are these people? A cynic might accuse the system of supplying uneducated minority voters who can be guaranteed to vote Democratic. But I’m not nearly so cynical, compared to others on this board.
You can accuse me of cherry-picking yet another example. But there are hundreds and thousands of examples of low-performing schools in this country, concentrated in poorer areas where parents have fewer choices available to them. DC is a rather glaring example of this, but it hardly stands alone.
Keep in mind, I’m not convinced that home schooling is always appropriate, and I’m mindful that all students can’t be accomodated by private education.
I’m certain, also, that students are currently overtested.
There’s a tendency among certain posters, mainly educators and “educators”, to either deny that there are any major problems in public education or say that the only problems can be addressed with funding increases. I disagree with both counts. The DC schools prove that you can get no bang for your buck.
I am a believer in public education. I believe we can do it right, and under budget.
Thoughts from Mr. Moto with responses from a retired teacher:
If the teachers are terrorists, then how can you possibly believe in public education?
The National Education Association is not even a union. That is a common misconception.
The further away from the classroom that one is, the greater the position of power in the educational hierarchy. Teachers are quite willing to lead and to make education better. And we are willing to follow those with workable solutions. Did you think that we are in this for the money and the prestige? The short hours? The secure working environment? The chance for advancement? The opportunity to spend summers without income?
We are not the bureaucrats! Think about what you are saying!
Do you really think that public education is highly praised in general? Could you give some examples of the vaunting of the public school system?
Do you understand what it means to say fully half? Do you remember who won the popular vote in the 2000 Presidential election? Is it your math that needs work or your American history?
The example you gave was of a union official – not a teacher – stealing from a union, not a school. It is not an example of corruption of the educational system at all. But even if it had been, do you understand that anecdotal examples do not prove widespread corruption?
Will you please cite one educator who has denied that there are any major problems in public education?
Will you please cite one educator who has said that only problems (sic) can be addressed with funding increases?
Please share your solutions.
Gotta go with Zoe.
If **Mr. Moto ** is willing to cite, then perhaps he’s not a troll. But durned if I can see how one or two instances equals “widespread corruption.”
Furthermore, Zoe has already beaten me to pointing out that a union administrator turning embezzler hardly equals “teachers and administrators stealing money from schools.”
A quick word about funding, sir: Under MOST circumstances, most of the budget of any given school district goes to pay teachers’ salaries. In my school district, the figure hovers around eighty percent. With me so far?
Now: My school district is a very nice place to work. It is considered “desirable.” Therefore, it pays LESS than some other schools.
“Inner City” schools are considered “undesirable.” Jobs in crappy places hold less appeal. They have more trouble attracting teachers to fill vacancies, and they tend to have a higher turnover rate. Therefore, if they are to fill those vacancies, they have to PAY more.
Therefore, there are inner-city schools (as well as extreme rural districts) that pay truly insane salaries, and *still * don’t have the best teachers! Why? Because most teachers don’t want to live in the boondocks, or live/work in a gang war zone.
I think this could go quite a ways towards explaining these financial discrepancies that you seem to think are evidence of teacher/administrator theft/embezzlement/whatever. And I have not even touched on the issues of repair of vandalized property, the cost of compliance with city codes (fire marshals are picky buggers, and the requirements change periodically), the cost of modifications to meet the needs of disabled students (some old buildings still don’t have wheelchair ramps, lifts, or elevators), yadda, yadda, yadda… man, I could yammer all DAY about perfectly legitimate stuff that schools HAVE TO HAVE that costs MONEY!
So next time you feel like making mass accusations, kindly take the time to learn what the fuck you’re talking about, asshead.
I already said the remarks were over the top. I meant to say that the terrorist remark was out of line.
Nobody is noting, too, the fact that Sec. Paige has recanted his remarks.
I agree up to a point, Zoe. Teachers get into teaching for all sorts of reasons, some noble, some practical, some quite selfish.
I’ve known people who teach because it’s a good job to hold when you have school age children. I’ve known others who like having time off in the summer to travel. Most teachers want to work with kids and help them learn. I wouldn’t be surprised if many teachers find more than one benefit from their work.
And yes, teachers are a vital part of the solution. But the national leadership of the NEA isn’t interested in anything innovative, isn’t going to cooperate in real reform of schools (especially if that might necessitate getting rid of bad teachers or unnecessary bureaucrats), and isn’t behind any solution that might represent a cost savings. After all, power is measured in membership and dues dollars.
I was being sarcastic, Zoe. Sorry if this didn’t come through in print.
Zoe I was making a point that there are a lot of Republicans out there. This is a small nit to pick.
Yes, I’ll admit, Al Gore received more votes. In the popular vote, he got a whole half-a-percentage-point more than Bush.
That still amounts to more than 50 million Bush voters, who have millions of kids in public school. Scary, isn’t it?
I’m happy to provide more, if you like.
$80 million budget shortfall attributed to financial and program mismanagement in special education.
Spavined Gelding had implied that schools in the Upper Midwest were doing hunky-dory. I wanted to drive home the point that this was hardly the case everywhere. And skutir had accused me of arguing in bad faith, saying I wanted to improve public education, but wanting to destroy it.
Look, I’m a product of public education. My aunt and my brother are teachers. I have fifteen-month-old twins at home. When they’re of school age, they will attend the excellent public elementary school in our neighborhood, only two blocks from their home. Mrs. Moto will walk them there every day.
Let’s just establish, for now, that I’m no troll, and that the subject of education is important to me. Can’t we discuss this, and keep it civil?
One more thing - my references to Republicans are for the pols only, not the voters.
I think it is clear you are not a troll.
I enjoy reading your posts, much as I do Bricker and Dewey Cheatham Unhowe, and I hope you will not be discouraged from posting.
Keep in mind that this is the Pit. It may not be possible to keep it civil.
Regards,
Shodan
PS - fuck.
I’d just like to address something to Master Wang-Ka.
The corruption in DC is making matters far worse than they would be otherwise. A corrupt and ineffective school system will only chase parents with means into the suburbs or into private education, leaving behind poorer students with far fewer options.
This will drive the test scores further down, make the discipline problems even worse, chase even more good students away and contribute to a downward spiral of ineffectiveness, corruption, violence, and even death.
Earlier this month, a student was shot at Ballou High School and later died. These aren’t banal hypotheticals we’re dealing with here.
And it should be clear, that on the subject of the vast scale of the misery, corruption, and violence of the Washington, DC public schools, I know what I’m talking about. Far more than you, at any rate.
The same thing, incidentally, happened in Clairton. My parents moved away from there while my brothers and I were of school age because of the quality of the schools. During that time, the schools deteriorated further. The Commonwealth of Pennsylvania several times took control of the schools from the school board due to poor performance and fiscal problems.
There are stories of woe like this all over the country.
BTW, thanks, Shodan.
Mr. Moto, I don’t think you are arguing in bad faith, but I do think that the alternatives you propose are not solutions, and, furthermore, are not believed by most pols to be solutions or reasonable alternatives. Vouchers will in no way guarantee every child an education, they simply give parents a way to get taxpayers to subsidize private religious education for their OWN kids at the expense of public education.
What’s more, Republican pols have consistently (a) slashed funds to public education, while (b) exaggerating and exacerbating the problems, and © being hostile to teachers and administrators, and (d) proposing plans like widespread testing and “accountability” that are obviously not intended to improve schools, but set them up for failure and funding cuts. There seems to be a deep investment in making sure schools fail, to “show” the voters they “need” vouchers, and generally continue with the stratification of our two-tiered education system. I honestly can’t see how anyone honest with themselves can argue that the voucher system is a feasible way to educate all children, or how anyone informed and sensitive to the realities of public education can believe that testing and threats and coercion are solutions instead of intentional schemes to prove public education is a failure. Coming from a party that is generally against federal social programs, it’s not too hard to speculate that Republicans are against public education and want to destroy it.
You may notice I consistently say Republicans want to destroy PUBLIC education. If their “alternative solutions” are private education, there is no reason to doubt that they are against public education.