Why is God even worthy of our worship?

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

@Voyager

Ah. As an explanation, I agree, but it goes beyond that into cruelty.
“Why are you beating me, daddy?”
“I have my reasons, you’re too young to know.”
doesn’t excuse it one bit.

Elie Wiesel (a survivor of Aushwitz) has made this very point. He says he hates the Mysterious Ways argument because there can be no reason good enough to excuse what he saw in the death camps. As someone who was a profoundly devout Hasid when he and his family got sent to the camps (he was the only member of his family who survived) his faith was shaken badly enough that he went through a period of atheism and he refused to listen to the MS argument either from Jews or from Christians. Eventually he came back to some sort of faith but he now writes that he no longer believes that God is omnipotent. It was the only theodicy which he found acceptable.

[David_Simmons]

@Diogenes the Cynic

Elie Wiesel (a survivor of Aushwitz) has made this very point. He says he hates the Mysterious Ways argument because there can be no reason good enough to excuse what he saw in the death camps. As someone who was a profoundly devout Hasid when he and his family got sent to the camps (he was the only member of his family who survived) his faith was shaken badly enough that he went through a period of atheism and he refused to listen to the MS argument either from Jews or from Christians. Eventually he came back to some sort of faith but he now writes that he no longer believes that God is omnipotent. It was the only theodicy which he found acceptable.

Interesting. Rather than accept the simple conclusion that the God he learned early in life doesn’t exist he goes for one who tries hard but just can’t quite cut it.

@Voyager

@TheFonz

Hardly. Yeeaaahh, to the skeptic I suppose it’s not. I’m guessing the day you find out I’m right is the day you’ll be the bitterest man alive. I’m glad I won’t be anywhere near you when that happens, because it should be any time now.

If you know exactly when it’s going to happen, can you give me a ring about a week before? That would be the time to get totally wasted.

That wouldn’t be my choice. I know exactly what I would do but don’t dare post it because NSC is listening in.

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

@David Simmons

Interesting. Rather than accept the simple conclusion that the God he learned early in life doesn’t exist he goes for one who tries hard but just can’t quite cut it.

His views on the Messiah are interesting as well. Basically he’s reconceptualized it as an allegory for humanity itself.

[mr.jp]

@Diogenes the Cynic

Elie Wiesel (a survivor of Aushwitz) has made this very point. He says he hates the Mysterious Ways argument because there can be no reason good enough to excuse what he saw in the death camps. As someone who was a profoundly devout Hasid when he and his family got sent to the camps (he was the only member of his family who survived) his faith was shaken badly enough that he went through a period of atheism and he refused to listen to the MS argument either from Jews or from Christians. Eventually he came back to some sort of faith but he now writes that he no longer believes that God is omnipotent. It was the only theodicy which he found acceptable.

Do all jews believe that god is omnipotent? I think from the OT it is pretty obvious that he isn’t. For instance there is one point where he tells his people to go to a particular battle. They lose, and thousands die.

[monavis]

@TheFonz

Now I have this image of the Pharaoh putting Jehovah in an armlock and talking like an old-style movie mobster; “Okay, Jehovah, here’s what it’s gonna be like, see ? Nice Heaven you have; be a shame if something happened to it . . .”

It only looks like that because you don’t understand it. It’s easier to live with your eyes closed, because then all you see is misunderstanding.
They wouldn’t exist if you didn’t have a craving for Cheetos, soft drinks, greasy steaks, deodorants and all the other bad chemical things in life. You think our planet is the first planet that this has ever happened to? It’s the grand life equation, buddy, and no man is worth his salt who is not willing to lay down his life for a greater cause. Unfortunately not all men are willing to live in this Hell of an Earth so God has to have his followers here on Earth trick you into believing that the world is not really as crazy as it really is.

He does this through promoting science as truth and religion as silliness. He had the church enforce the idea that the world is flat and revolves around the Sun, which men of science immediately disproved. He had the church say the Earth is only 6,000 years old, while scientists discovered bones supposedly millions of years old. He had religion say that some dude stuck two of every animal on a boat, while men of science split the atom. Hands down science prevailed, and our history and anything our ancestors ever said were whiped away from the common memory of man.

God can’t command all the pollutants in the world from wreaking the havoc that they do upon our bodies. What he can do is cause the energy fields of our planet to change, pulling apart all the crazy and messed up chemicals in our world and turning them into something a little more benign. If you made all the right choices in this life and in your last you will most likely live through this great cleansing period. There won’t be so many chemicals in your body that breach your own body’s energy fields and tamper with them,

Only because those like yourself will refuse to lay down your life, with all your evil thoughts, and will insist on being a sore on humanity’s backside. God will do what he will have to do to ensure that the new golden age will arrive, and that the ways of the old world, our world, are whiped off the face of the Earth.
Then why don’t you also see it as your duty to go tear down all the soft drink factories and hazardous chemical plants that spread their dangerous toxins? Why don’t you see it as your duty to spread awareness about our local water supplies and why it is important to keep them clea? Why don’t you feel the urge to tell people how to live healthier lives? These are the things that cause diseases.

You don’t understand how to run a planet, much less a Universe, so how would YOU know what is good and rational? You insist on being bitter, you insist on hating God for your plight and that is your choice I suppose. I don’t believe you’re a good and rational person, however, and you better believe you’re going to encounter some resistance with this fight. You may even lose… hehehehe.

If the New testament writers are correct then there will be no earth for the meek to inherit,if all the stars come crashing down the meek won’t survive either.

Monavis

[CJJ]

@David Simmons

Sure. Any such belief is hazardous and can be the object of manipulation. That makes them all dangerous. We all need to haul our belief’s out, hold them up the the light and examine them more often than we do. I think I’m among the bottom third in doing this often enough.

Absolutely true (the first claim at least; I’m in no position to judge the quality of your own examination of beliefs).

[TheFonz]

[quote[If the New testament writers are correct then there will be no earth for the meek to inherit,if all the stars come crashing down the meek won’t survive either.[/quote]

Not stars, but perhaps ball lightning. That would certainly be a scary sight to behold, and would look like stars to the person who did not know what they are.

[TheFonz]

I suppose he could get one fact right in three threads and dozens of posts. There may be such a thing. Every electrical fire I’ve encountered has been blue, but I try not to get near burning things that are not contained on stoves or near fire pits.

Damn, you’ve never heard of St. Elmo’s fire?

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

@TheFonz

Damn, you’ve never heard of St. Elmo’s fire?

St. Elmo’s fire is blue.

[monavis]

@TheFonz

Not stars, but perhaps ball lightning. That would certainly be a scary sight to behold, and would look like stars to the person who did not know what they are.

Ball lightening would not desttroy the entire world and the writer that quoted Jesus as saying the Stars would Fall and the moon would no longer give it’s light, did not know that the moon’s light was a reflection from the sun

Monavis

[chowder]

Well maybe, just maybe, there is a God who is good and kind and merciful…

Good…Hitler
Kind…Stalin
Merciful…Pol Pot

To name just a trio of His children., there’s been plenty more like 'em down the ages.

If there is a God he has a piss poor sense of humour, at least with Satan (if there is one) at least we know where we stand with this guy, he’s an out and out bastard without any pretensions to be anything but

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

@chowder

If there is a God he has a piss poor sense of humour, at least with Satan (if there is one) at least we know where we stand with this guy, he’s an out and out bastard without any pretensions to be anything but

Is he really, though? What does he ever do in the Bible that’s really so horrible? He tempted Jesus? Who cares? He rebels against God? Why is that a bad thing? (Never mind that it would seem to be a completely illogical thing).

If you add up Satan’s alleged crimes and compare them to God’s, it’s not even close. God makes Satan look like Gandhi.

[chowder]

@Diogenes the Cynic

Is he really, though? What does he ever do in the Bible that’s really so horrible? He tempted Jesus? Who cares? He rebels against God? Why is that a bad thing? (Never mind that it would seem to be a completely illogical thing).

If you add up Satan’s alleged crimes and compare them to God’s, it’s not even close. God makes Satan look like Gandhi.

Well I gotta admit you’re right there my friend, yes indeedy 100% on the ball.

I’m assuming you saw the film “Devils Advocate” well Pacino got it right when he said “God’s sitting up there laughing his ass off”.

Like I said, piss poor sense of humour our “benevolent” God