[QUOTE=CJJ*]
If your arguing the price for belief in God is too steep to pay for this comfort, I’m not sure I strictly agree. Belief in God can damage a person (fundamentalism rears its ugly head again), but I don’t think it necessarily damages you.
[/QUOTE]
The belief in some kind of Higher Power seems to be exceedingly powerful. It appears to me that this need to believe can be rather easily manipulated by the greedy and a high price indeed is exacted when that is done.
[QUOTE=TheFonz]
Well obviously he can’t, he’s subject to the same forces of nature as the rest of us, he’s just a lot more powerful and smarter. He’s not omnipotent, that’s a myth
[/quote]
He is a myth, and in the myth, he’s omnipotent. I don’t deny God’s omnipotence any more than Q’s, and for the same reason.
[QUOTE=TheFonz]
What we do in one life will carry on to our next life. I always hear people say something like “oh this will never happen in my life time, maybe in my children’s life time,” but what the hell do you think happens to you when you die? You cease to exist?
[/quote]
Yup, out like a smashed light bulb. No next life, no after life.
[QUOTE=TheFonz]
Hell no, your soul wanders around trying to find a suitable womb with a sperm and egg to grow into. If your soul was mangled because in your previous life you enjoyed being a jackass, then that’s going to carry on into your next life, especially if your parents enjoyed being jackasses as well.
[/quote]
And your evidence for this is ? And your evidence that it matters is ? I have no memory of a previous life; if I have a “soul” and a “previous life”, that “previous me” is gone; annihilated. It’s the futility of reincarnation.
[QUOTE=TheFonz]
The problems you see with our world are here because our world is nearing the end of it’s lifespan.
[/QUOTE]
Not even close.
[QUOTE=TheFonz]
If everybody had it all figured out, who the hell would want to go mine the coal and dirty up their lungs?
[/quote]
People who were paid well, with breath masks. Or machines. Duh.
[QUOTE=TheFonz]
This is why God keeps things calm by telling us we don’t need to worry ourselves over these things, because he already is.
[/quote]
Calm ? Religion ? Does the phrase “Middle East” mean anything to you ?
[QUOTE=TheFonz]
There are evil people out there, who would harness these forces for their own simple pleasures. Wouldn’t you like to be able to force choke that tech support guy who can’t help you with your call and put you on hold for 5 minutes just to tell you he can’t help you? There are twisted people in the world just looking to get over on everyone else any which way they can and given the right knowledge and tools there’d be nothing you could do to stop them. THIS is why religion exists.
[/quote]
Yeah, riiiiight. There are no mystic powers to be aquired, God or no God, and it doesn’t matter anyway. Why go to the effort to develop the Power of Black Magic when you can murder people with a plain old shotgun ? Far more efficient. If magic worked, it would be everywhere, the way technology is everywhere.
[QUOTE=TheFonz]
Sorry if you CAN’T understand it, but the world WAS created.
[/quote]
Prove it. Given that there is much evidence for it being natural, prove that it is not. Creationist = fool.
[QUOTE=TheFonz]
We think lightning is made inside a cloud. Hehhehehehe. 
[/quote]
It is; your moronic giggles won’t change that.
[QUOTE=TheFonz]
But he could not. The Egyptian leadership understoof fully well the forces of nature, and they set a dangerous precedent by trying to allude God and control the Earth.
[/quote]
No, they were ignorant primitives who were rather clueless about nature.
[QUOTE=TheFonz]
These men HATED God so much they wanted to fire an arrow at God. The top of the tower looks like a warhead, the top was meant to reach heaven, the men wanted to fire an arrow at God… can you see why the average Joe, such as yourself, cannot be allowed to know the nature of all things?
[/quote]
They had their own gods, and would not have bothered to shoot at God; they’d expect Ra and Osirus and so on to take care of it. And I can learn the nature of things; it’s called “science”.
[QUOTE=TheFonz]
You might get spiteful and try to fire a warhead at God, heaven, and all the people of that world out of jealousy.
[/quote]
Jealousy ? Hatred, hatred for a monster and his sycophants.
[QUOTE=TheFonz]
The 800-lb man loves Big Mac’s, and can eat them until he goes blind and has to get his legs cut off because of his diabetes and so on. Wouldn’t he have been better of never touching the damn things to begin with? He couldn’t help himself, and so he suffers because of HIS actions.
[/quote]
Or . . . he could just eat the occasional hamburger, and die of old age. Anything will kill in excess; burgers aren’t the problem.
[QUOTE=TheFonz]
You cannot even comprehend how our world was made, so I doubt you could think of a better way our world could be.
[/QUOTE]
Of course I do, at least the parts that don’t require specialized knowledge.
I largely agree, which is why I don’t advocate trying to force atheism on others. It just doesn’t work - that is, unless you are willing to spend centuries and spill lakes of blood in the process, like ancient Christianity. If I became the Mad Emperor Der Trihs and spent the next millenium systematically killing anyone even slightly religious, I expect religon would be bred out of humanity. It would also be a cure worse than the disease; “Dr Guillotin’s Dandruff Cure”.
[QUOTE=CJJ*]
Unlike Naomi Watts, who personally I think is a bit of a whack job:)
[/QUOTE]
Eeep, of course I meant Naomi Campbell here, who I’m sure is really, absolutely delightful in person. So much for my suave attempt at humor…no wonder I don’t get the supermodels:)
[QUOTE=David Simmons]
The belief in some kind of Higher Power seems to be exceedingly powerful. It appears to me that this need to believe can be rather easily manipulated by the greedy and a high price indeed is exacted when that is done.
[/QUOTE]
I would argue this, but even if it were true, it’s true of any deeply held belief, religious or otherwise.
That I am alive and conscious right here, right before the apocalypse.
[QUOTE=CJJ*]
With all due respect, “shit happens” isn’t an explanation for anything. Of course, the alternatives you cite–the person did something wrong, a deity playing tricks–are not explanations either.
[/quote]
The answer is that there is no answer. The father of a friend of mine in college used to say “why is a crooked letter.” He was a Holocaust survivor, who lost his first wife and children in the camps, so I’m not sure how he would have done with the god works in mysterious ways answer. My philisophy is that there doesn’t have to be an explanation. The universe does not work the way people work. Tunnel roofs fall on people for no reason. Asteroids kill the dinosaurs for no reason. Some people can accept this and some can’t, and I think that is a distinguishing characteristic that distinguishes the religious from the non-religious.
Well obviously saying “shit happens” is terrible. But I’m not sure “there is a reason” works any better. Sure, sometimes people die for good causes, but sometimes people die for no reason. I’m not sure many people asking “why?” want an answer, and I’m not sure many will accept any answer. God can surely accomplish his ends without people dying if he wished. I prefer to concentrate on remembering the person, and the good the person did. My mother-in-law died earlier this year, and we focused on the facts that she lived to a ripe old age, had just seen a lot of old friends for her 90th birthday, and died the way she wanted to die, without lingering.
And the only valid criticisms of theism center around the existence of god. You must excuse people for rejecting the “there is a reason argument” after the Lisbon earthquake and the tsunami.
First of all, believing that things happen without a reason does not mean life has no purpose. We create purpose. We have children. We do things to make the world better. What’s the true purpose of life when your only important goal is personal salvation, and god rings the game over buzzer at some point. Do the idiot fundamentalists who belive in polluting the earth because it will end anyway have more of a purpose than an atheist who feels he must protect it for the future? (Or the theist who feels the same way, to be fair.)
In addition, no atheist is going to say god is scewing with you. First of all, we don’t think he is (him not existing and all.) Second, it would be cruel. But I’m not going to say god works in mysterious ways - there are other ways of offering comfort which I think work better.
Finally, this thead isn’t about belief in god, it is about whether god is worthy of worship even if he does exist. (A moot point if he doesn’t.) If god exists, he has great responsibility. If he shirks this, either by letting horrible things happen or by causing them, then perhaps he’s worth rejecting, believe in him or not.
Say you lived in the Soviet Union in the '30s, and all your friends had pictures of Stalin in their houses, and, if not worshipping him, feel he can do no wrong - for that’s what Pravda says. Yet you remember the lies, and you know people dragged off to the camps. Stalin exists, and is powerful - do you worship him for that reason, or do you reject him?
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
“Shit happens” and “Mysterious ways” are really the same thing. The Mysterious Ways argument can really be condensed into “God happens” which is no answer at all and offers no compelling reason to trust God.
God can explain himself to me or sod off.
[/QUOTE]
Not at all. Mysterious ways is a bad explanation since the innocents who died in the tsunami are still dead. The difference is that they might have died as innocent victims of mindless geologic forces, or because someone with the capacity to save them either didn’t care or caused the disaster. The burden of proof is then on the theist to explain why god couldn’t have done it with even one fewer death.
I’ll take random chance myself, I suspect you do also.
[QUOTE=Scylla]
It is described all around us, in the fact of our very existence, in everything we see, and everything that ever was and ever will be, from a flea to a chickadee, to a little birdy in a tree.
It is described in our DNA and in horses hay, in the gas we pass and a little girl’s laugh. In a house, in a mouse.
I see it here and there and everywhere. You could see it to in kind if only you would choose to be blind.
[/QUOTE]
This isn’t really an answer. What do you see in the universe that can’t be explained without a “supreme being?” How would any of the things you mentioned look different if there was no Creator?
What exactly do you “see” that I don’t see? I have emotional and aesthetic responses to stimuli too, I just don’t see any reason to believe it’s attributable to anything more than my own evolved biology. I am EVOLVED to respond to certain stimuli with positive responses. It’s all just brain chemistry. I used to do this same kind of pseudo-mystical musing when I dropped acid, and utter the same kind of imagined profundities. Then I came down.
[QUOTE=TheFonz]
That I am alive and conscious right here, right before the apocalypse.
[/QUOTE]
That’s hardly evidence of reincarnation, nor of an apocalypse.
That’s making the assumption that the story of god is true and correct in the first place.
[QUOTE=Voyager]
Not at all. Mysterious ways is a bad explanation since the innocents who died in the tsunami are still dead. The difference is that they might have died as innocent victims of mindless geologic forces, or because someone with the capacity to save them either didn’t care or caused the disaster. The burden of proof is then on the theist to explain why god couldn’t have done it with even one fewer death.
I’ll take random chance myself, I suspect you do also.
[/QUOTE]
I agree that “shit happens” is not an explanation and is not intended to be. I just think that “mysterious ways” (i.e. there is a reason, we just don’t know what it is) is so unhelpful and impractical as to border on nihilistic itself.
[QUOTE=tomndebb]
So you have a false etymology working in cooperation with false history mixed with bad science simply to make some odd claim about ancient monuments that is unsupported by any statement you have made and refuted by all linguistics, history, engineering, and science.
It is not looking good for your arguments on this one.
[/QUOTE]
Is he at least right about the green electric fire?
Hardly. Yeeaaahh, to the skeptic I suppose it’s not. I’m guessing the day you find out I’m right is the day you’ll be the bitterest man alive. I’m glad I won’t be anywhere near you when that happens, because it should be any time now.
Just wait, when the economies of the world come crashing down you’ll see how bad things get. 
Yesh Mam.
[QUOTE=CJJ*]
I would argue this, but even if it were true, it’s true of any deeply held belief, religious or otherwise.
[/QUOTE]
Sure. Any such belief is hazardous and can be the object of manipulation. That makes them all dangerous. We all need to haul our belief’s out, hold them up the the light and examine them more often than we do. I think I’m among the bottom third in doing this often enough.
I guess I should go on and say that the reason I think religious beliefs lead the way in this is that there are so many religious people and so many different religious beliefs in the world. This multiplies the opportunities for the greedy and gives them more power than would the manipulation of, say, a deeply held belief in the goals of The Enlightenment.
[QUOTE=TheFonz]
Hardly. Yeeaaahh, to the skeptic I suppose it’s not.
[/quote]
In other words, it’s not evidence. At all.
[QUOTE=TheFonz]
I’m guessing the day you find out I’m right is the day you’ll be the bitterest man alive. I’m glad I won’t be anywhere near you when that happens, because it should be any time now.
[/quote]
:eek: Ohhhhh ! I’m scared ! !
[QUOTE=TheFonz]
Just wait, when the economies of the world come crashing down you’ll see how bad things get.
[/QUOTE]
Which may happen, but is not even close to an apocalypse.
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
I agree that “shit happens” is not an explanation and is not intended to be. I just think that “mysterious ways” (i.e. there is a reason, we just don’t know what it is) is so unhelpful and impractical as to border on nihilistic itself.
[/QUOTE]
Ah. As an explanation, I agree, but it goes beyond that into cruelty.
“Why are you beating me, daddy?”
“I have my reasons, you’re too young to know.”
doesn’t excuse it one bit.
[QUOTE=TheFonz]
Hardly. Yeeaaahh, to the skeptic I suppose it’s not. I’m guessing the day you find out I’m right is the day you’ll be the bitterest man alive. I’m glad I won’t be anywhere near you when that happens, because it should be any time now.
Just wait, when the economies of the world come crashing down you’ll see how bad things get.
[/QUOTE]
If you know exactly when it’s going to happen, can you give me a ring about a week before? That would be the time to get totally wasted.
Oh, and do I need my anti-rapture helmet for your version of the end?
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal]
Is he at least right about the green electric fire?
[/QUOTE]
I suppose he could get one fact right in three threads and dozens of posts. There may be such a thing. Every electrical fire I’ve encountered has been blue, but I try not to get near burning things that are not contained on stoves or near fire pits.
(The fact that he seems unable to understand that and why his made up etymology is not only wrong but irrelevant is a bit scary, of course.)