Why is Heaven Up and other imponderables?

Factual Questions
1

These are serious questions I want to ask my very fundie friend to see his thoughts and compare them to the collective wisdom that is the Dope.

Mods - I am really interested in some good answers here, rather than a debate, so can we give it a chance before we dump it into GD please?

I am wondering why Christians (and perhaps other Abrahamic religions) see “up” as the location of heaven, of God, etc.

Other religions look down for inspiration towards the Earth.

Modern science seems to indicate the smaller you go, the less ordered things are, and so possibly the more wondrous they might be. How is this reflected in the Bible?

On a somewhat related matter, about the Rapture - I have seen drawings of paintings and heard people describe it that people will literally fly straight up to heaven.

It strikes me that “straight up” varies depending on where you are at the time, not the least being the mostly-spherical shape of the earth. People on opposite sides of the Earth (across a diameter) would each sense they are going up, but would in fact be going in 180 degrees opposite direction from each other.

Most people will be Raptured on land, and more or less stationary I suppose, so that would seem to me to indicate that the shape of heaven is traced out by the continents, and the part of all space traced out by the oceans is not Heaven, or is Heaven but unused and maybe unusable.

So which parts of the sky are heaven, and if all of it is, then why would it seem that the distributions of arrivals would vary depending on the population density on Earth at the time?

Not only that, but how high would you have to go before you get to heaven? What do you call the in-between state?

And depending on how high Heaven is, wouldn’t everyone be very far apart from each other, even if they were neighbors on the ground, again due to the curvature of the earth? I heard heaven is not lonely at all, but it seems like there could be effectively-infinite distance between arrivals, even if we assume they will stop rising at some very high altitude.

What if you are moving during the Rapture - would you drift during your flight along some sort of tangent deflection? If so, do you run the risk of missing the part of the firmaments that are heaven and end up in the non-heaven part? How would you correct your navigation, or be corrected in such a case? If you are on an airplane going 500 mph, you could have a pretty substantial “miss” I would think (without doing the math).

Sine his answer to me is generally, it is in the KJ Bible, and the KJ Bible is literally true and explains EVERYTHNG, bonus points if you cast your explanations for me in terms of that, and the more scholarly you are (or impress me as being) the better!

Thanks so much for helping to fight my ignorance!

2

Also I guess I should ask, is Heaven a spherical shell of some thickness? Is there an upper and a lower bound (relative to Earth)? What is above or beyond heaven?

And oh yeah, where does Hell fit in with all this? Where is that one if not up into the firmaments?

3

I imagine that it has a lot to do with believing that the world is flat. If you believe that being left-handed is unholy, then you can believe that up is holy/heaven and down is evil/hell.

And imagine too, that folks back in the day didn’t know what space was. Many may have thought that parts of the night sky were heaven and dark, scary caves may lead to hell (I remember watching a History Channel show that substantiates this).

4

If you’ve brought up everything in your post to your friend, and he still answers with that, you’re not going to get very far. But it couldn’t hurt to mention that the King James Version of the Bible is a pretty crappy one. If you’re going to use one single book to inform all of your opinions, you should at least study every extant version in your native language. And that’s really no substitute for learning the languages in was originally written in. I mean, what if, due to a printer’s error, you accidentally stoned someone for watchcraft? :smack:

To answer you basic question, it seems pretty plausible that a person or culture would see things that are higher as better, purer, and cleaner versus things that are lower, and therefore worse, polluted, and dirtier. Hell, it’s still embedded all over English. You’ve got pagan gods living on mountains and dead people buried in the ground. Perfectly good beings get bird wings and feathers; evil beings get lizard scales. It all works together.

The rest of your questions are, of course, ridiculous extrapolations from a flawed premise (not your fault; it goes all the way back to angels on a pinhead). My answer to your questions is the same one I give for why all the Brady children were able to share one bathroom without killing each other: because it’s fake.

5

Well, Jesus ascended into heaven to be seated at the right hand of The Father. He didn’t dissolve into the earth or walk away down the street. So that right there is a big clue as to why it’s believed that heaven is “up.”

As for the rest of the specifics, I have no clue :slight_smile:

6

The gods traditionally either lived on a mountain or in the heavens, where they could overlook humanity. Christianity inherited this. God, in Christianity/Judaism, is for example El Shaddai, the Lord of the Mountain, most likely in reference to Mt. Sinai where he traditionally was seen as dwelling.

Most likely the move from mountain tops to the greater sky occurred with the introduction of parchment, which allowed religions to expand beyond small geographic regions. As the Roman pantheon become worshiped across all of Europe, having the Gods be generically “up” allowed them to be close to everyone rather than just close to a particular set of tribes.

7

That sort of begs the question doesn’t it? Didn’t heaven exist before Jesus’ crucifixion?

Even then, didn’t he have to move somewhat parallel to the ground at ground level for at least a bit before he was clear of obstructions? Does that mean that some Newtonian physics apply to the Rapture, but there is extra stuff that applies too that never quite happens in our world as we know it but will suddenly start happening?

Yeah, been there, done that, which is why I am coming here first.

Oh I have mentioned that, and I would say it most certain DID hurt the conversation. He keeps telling me to read it, al the answers are there. This despite him spending at least 25 years obsessed with studying it for explanations of everything (before that he was a very cool dude) but me, I am supposed to get it simply by reading, no questions asked or needed. :rolleyes:

I actually have another friend who is a retired minster whose doctorate required him to read and learn the OT and NT in the original languages. He has been invaluable in the politics of Prop 8 here locally - I generally save him to speak last, after the fundies have shot their rhetorical load so to speak.

That might answer another question I have - why are there always so many of these paperback Bibles on sale at the 99 cent store?

Pretty sure English didn’t apply at the time :slight_smile:

Less sure, but it still seems to me that associating good/bad with up/down or even creating Gods at all does not seem like a given. Shinto, Buddhism, Taoism, and I am sure much more covered a pretty good swath of the world without any of that.

Maybe it is more mysterious to some, this ability to float through the air like a bird or a cloud.

I know, but I really want to push him on this. I am sure if I start by asking where the Rapture is defined, what it is, etc., I can draw him in. I really want to have a good idea of what he will say in advance, partly to say I read the book and did some homework, partly to save time (as this is going to be an online long distance non-chat thing) and I want to cover as much as possible before he gets upset with me.

Of course. But what is the Bible’s explanation. After all, according to my friend (and we all know one of these), ALL the answers are in the Bible if only we would read it. But I don’t come from a NT-worshipping background, used-to-do-satellite-orbits-and-attitudes-for-NASA atheist though I may be now, so I truly plead ignorance on al those, I can’t be the first to wonder about them can I?

Didn’t the left/sinsiter thing post-date heaven being up though (sinister comes from Latin, right?) (no pun intended :))

OK, but that is not the Biblical Answer unless the it is now the History Channel/King James Version on Demand ™. It could be, I don’t know, I haven’t watched TV for a while…

8

I don’t think even the original Hebrew/Old Testament believers envisioned heaven as some literal layer of things above the clouds. The Old Testament is pretty vague about the afterlife in general and “the heavens” is as good a place as any for God to be living.

The Heaven of the New Testament isn’t “up” in any sense of the word. The book of Revelations makes it clear that there will be a new heaven and a new Earth, and we’ll be living there in a giant city of gold. People floating around on clouds with harps owes a lot to Greek beliefs and the Gnostics, who believed that physical material was inherently bad and therefore needed a non-physical heaven if it was going to be perfect. But the strictly New Testament Heaven has always been very physical, with very real bodies (perfected and resurrected, but bodies nonetheless).

As far as understanding the Rapture, you might try Wikipedia for a start, which will show you that there are multiple possible interpretations of what the Bible says. It is described as being “swept up” or “caught up” to meet God in the clouds. If you’re willing to accept an omnipotent God in the first place, surely it’s not a stretch of the imagination to think that He can control the “swept up” process to get people where He wants them? To assume otherwise, as you have done, is just a weak straw man argument. The Rapture is not going to follow Newtonian laws of motion, I can bet you that much.

Of course, the meeting in the clouds isn’t Heaven (since the new earth hasn’t been made yet). It’s just a meeting of the believers with God while (according to some interpretations) the worst of the judgments are finished on Earth. It’s like when you clean out an animal cage - you take them out first, and then put them back when you’re done.

Anyway, it’s important to understand that the Bible doesn’t specifically dictate all of the information about heaven or the rapture. While we do have some very specific bits of information, there are multiple valid interpretations that try to put those bits into a more complete picture.

9

Well, you are no Christian according to my friend. He is quite clear with me that there is NOT room for interpretation of the Bible and the answer to everything is in there.

I am not looking to be persuaded, only to know what he might say and what his sources might be. I predict he will be ready with chapter and verse.

Even if the plan is to lift people up, clean out the shit (he that’s me! watch it with that giant Jesus-broom!), and then return people, they still have to be somewhere while they wait, and I would adapt all my questions to that time.

What physics would it obey? Quantum on a Newtonian scale? Something else? Would gravity seek to exist? Just on Earth, or everywhere? What odds are you giving?

10

I liveina place where there are literally no clouds for about 8 consecutive months of the year and also it is pretty clear most of the rest, even during rainy years like this one.

I assumed (possibly incorrectly) that when Rapture occurs, it occurs everywhere at the same time. Can one be Raptured if there are no clouds of many hundred of miles or will it be a cloudy day over the entire earth when it happens?

Well that is an interesting question too. I went ot a Tea Party event a month or so to look around and I talked at length with an old dude. Well, everyone was an old dude or his wife. But this one had self published a book he was earnestly trying to sell.

At some point in the conversation he tried to explain the difference between a deist and a theist among Christians. One believes there is a God who set things up and let’s things happen, and the other believes there is the same God, but he interferes in his little creation.

If the Deist is right, then there would be no Rapture?

If the God is as the Theist believes, that must be my friend if he believes in Rapture (which I don’t know he does for sure). God as our puppet master is how I would imagine that.

Anyway, is that the fundie view I can expect from my friend? How would he explain away individuals, no matter how sincere in their Christianity, who are deists? Can they never be raptured since their god is not omnipotent? Can Christians really have different gods - one omnipotent and one not, and still be the same religion?

Damn! so many questions! Where are the answers in the Bible?

Why did he have to study so long if he insists I can find it simply by reading it end to end?

surely it’s not a stretch of the imagination to think that He can control the “swept up” process to get people where He wants them? To assume otherwise, as you have done, is just a weak straw man argument. The Rapture is not going to follow Newtonian laws of motion, I can bet you that much.

Of course, the meeting in the clouds isn’t Heaven (since the new earth hasn’t been made yet). It’s just a meeting of the believers with God while (according to some interpretations) the worst of the judgments are finished on Earth. It’s like when you clean out an animal cage - you take them out first, and then put them back when you’re done.

Anyway, it’s important to understand that the Bible doesn’t specifically dictate all of the information about heaven or the rapture. While we do have some very specific bits of information, there are multiple valid interpretations that try to put those bits into a more complete picture.
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11

In what sense is this guy your friend? I’m reading a lot of hostility here.

12

We learn from each other because we go way back to before he made some weird choices in his life, but he had issues and was vulnerable is all I can surmise about that.

Now about the answers to the questions?

13

Someone like Dio can probably give you more, but, if I remember correctly, originally the idea was that all souls met in the ground at place called Sheol. This is why when Saul goes to the medium, the prophet Samuel comes up from out of the earth. It is not until Christ that man was given the chance to go to “heaven”, i.e., where God is. Sheol makes sense because that’s where you buried bodies. And, of course, if you are going to rise again, you’re going to go the opposite direction.

As for why God is there, I can only come up with it via inference. God hovers over the earth back in Genesis. He created the world, so he can’t be inside it. He created the Sun, sky, and stars, so he can’t be inside them. So he has to be behind the sky, i.e. outside the universe, since he created that.

14

It’s actually rather simple. In primitive religions the gods live in inaccesible and taboo areas. In really primitive religions these may simply be valleys that people aren’t allowed to enter. As society advanced and foreigners unaware of the taboos started to wander into these areas the Gods moved to physically inaccessible areas, usually mountaintops. It appears that Jehovah once literally dwelt on Mount Zion, in Ancient Greek religion Zeus literally dwelt on Mount Olympus. As society advanced further, and people began t climb those montains the Gods were forced to move once again. In almost all cases they moved to areas that are physically impossible to reach: the sky or under the ground or under the oceans.

With polytheistic religions you usually find some Gods that live underground, some that live in the oceans but most, and always the chief, live in mansions in the sky. The Abrahamic religions, being essentially montheistic, naturally have their one god living in a mansion in the sky. SO as you can see, these religions aren’t really all that different most other religions.

As for these religions that look down to the Earth for religious inspiration, I can’t quite think what that might mean. Abrahamic religions certain take inspiration from the earth, from the land of milk and honey to going to the ants to learn wisdom. I can’t think of any other religions that take more inspiration from the earth. Can you name some for us?

Since the rapture is a 10th century invention that doesn’t appear in the KJ or any other Bible, I can’t quite see the relevance of this. It occurs however tehpeople making it up want to occur.

If your friend accuses you of being disingenuous after you spout this sort of stuff, he will be correct. To put it in really simple terms, rockets also go straight up inot the heavens. Do you really think that means that Russia cold only place sattelites over Russia and were incapable of placing them over the US? Unless your friend has stated clearly that angels are incapable of movement, this objection is disingenuous in the extreme.

Your problem here is that English is an oddity in that we have a word for heaven, another for the air and yet a third for the sky, and that is a fairly recent distinction. Most languages, including Hebrew, have no such clear distinction in common speech. As such one will speak of a bird flying in the heavens, a skyscraper having it’s top floors in the heavens, clouds drifting in the heavens, stars covering the heavens and dead souls being in heaven. Now clearly these are not all the same thing. In English some senses would be translated as sky, some as air and some as heaven. The Bible speaks of all those things as being in the heavens. So by some biblical uses heaven is the height at which birds fly, which may be as little as a few inches, and certainly you don;t nee dot go more than 10 km up to reach heaven by that usage.

It certainly is in some senses of the word:

“No man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.” John 3:13

So the heaven of the New Testament is up and one goes down to get from heaven to earth.

Of course nobody, not even the most rabid fundie, thinks that all of revelation is literal. There is dispute as to which bits are literal and which are symbolic (surprising, huh?) but you certainly can’t say that revelation makes it clear that this is literally true.

As with pretty much everything else in the Bible, it’s vague and contradictory and open to any interpretation you like.

Since every other use of spirit or spiritual in the Bible refers to something intangible, it seems odd to suggest that this spiritual body is physical. This is further bolstered by the fact that angels and other heavenly beings, including the ghosts of Moses and Elijah that spoke with Jesus before his own ascension, all have non-physical bodies, or at least bodies that obey none of the laws of physics.

But this is the nature of the Bible. You pick and choose which bits to believe, and unlike Flanders you can’t actually believe the bits that contradict the other bits.

15

I strongly recommend this book about language and metaphor. It discusses exactly the kind of question in the OP. Metaphors We Live By by George Lakoff and Mark Johnson.

16

Oh I get all that. I am just wondering what the hardcore Biblical position is going to be, since in previous discussions with this guy about pretty much everythign, it boils down to “The Bible says this”, and from there he is pretty much willing to build a Christian theocracy out of the US, I am sure you can imagine that thread of so-called reasoning.

In this case, I am really just curious what his end-of-days views are based on the Bible, and to see if, when he says these things are literally true requiring no interpretation, how far he is willing to go before he says some interpretation is needed.

then I will probably shut up for about 6 months and the next time he says “literally true, no interpretation needed”, I will remind him that he doesn’t really mean that.

But I am, in a perverse kind of way fascinated by these questions and the rhetoric they might evoke from a true believer who is at least willing to engage me because of our longstanding history.

17

Ask him for a book/chapter/verse cite for the Rapture.

In any case, one explanation I’ve heard for why heaven is up is that, for a desert people, heaven would be a cooler place than the current one, and up is cooler. Likewise, hell is even worse than the desert. The Inuit version of hell is a frozen wasteland.

18

In intend to. It is not like he has ever mentioned Rapture to me, this topic is coming entirely from me. So, if as someone said upthread it is not actually in the NT, he may say straight off that he doesn’t believe it, it is not in there, etc.

If so, then all of the above is moot, and I would be more likely to ask “Are people who believe in the Rapture truly Christians?” since he has expressed opinions about other Christians based on their not adhering to his dogma.

19

One would also surmise that as populations grew the mountaintops got colonized by sheep herders and the like, who presumably noticed a definite dearth of muscular types drinking ambrosia. Presumably, at around this time the priests shifted the gods’ location to far up in the sky, probably muttering something like “let’s see you check there, motherfucker…” under their bushy beards.

But on a more basic level, it’s a rather intuitive symbolism : the sky’s where all those wholesome lights are, the nice and warm sun by day, the pretty stars by night. By comparison, the further you go into a deep cave, the less light there is until you’re in a very scary, cold, dank and full of eery little sounds total darkness. It’s no wonder then that populations the world over have decreed the underground to be the place of the dead and all the “bad” gods.
Why should the Israelites (and the Christians that followed them) be any different ?

20

Weren’t there plenty of relgions, pagan and otherwise that thought that goodness came from the Earth? You know, food, water, shelter, sustenance, all of those good things?

Personally I think it could go either way if I was starting a religion, and I think that the historical evidence would show it did when others started them too. The propaganda of the “Heaven is Up” crowd has nearly won out, but that hardly means the others were never there.

Anyway, in this case it is specific Bible verses I am after, and if there is some related Christian history such as I have read on other threads, I am open to reading it!