Zeb, a belated thank you for your answer – though I probably ought to have seen it coming! 
Not to commit equine abuse, but out of sheer curiosity – what then is the explanation for the apparent theophany at Mamre that I referenced in phrasing my question? It certainly sounds to this reader as though the Lord God of Hosts Himself appeared in human form, with two angels, to Abraham. Am I missing something contextual that changes the story for believing Jews?
ZEV –
Nor, obviously, does it mean that we do not all pray to the same Being. Whether we do or not is a matter of opinion, based on religious faith and belief; my religion and belief tells me that we do, and your religion and belief tell you that we do not. We therefore are left with only (a) opinion or (b) the limited historical/mythical/literary record regarding the development of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. Under (b), the answer to the question “do all three worship the same God?” is pretty clearly “yes” (as I have said); under (a) – it depends on who you ask.
I don’t think we disagree on this. And I do not ask you to say anything you don’t believe, or refrain from saying anything you do, but your belief that my God is false, even if truly held and respectfully offered, must nevertheless rankle me at some level – just as you would not doubt be rankled to be informed by someone you otherwise respect that you practice idolatry. Because idolatry is no less a heresy in my religion that it is in yours, or in Islam for that matter. Again, I respect your right to hold your own opinion in this matter, but I do not respect the opinion itself, since it is IMO historically and religiously erroneous.
We may disagree, as UDS points out, about various aspects of God, and may even have an interesting discussion on the issue of at what point the mutation or evolution of a given thing yields a separate, different thing (in this case a diety). But I don’t see much room to argue that Christianity and Islam did not both arise from Judaism, and therefore as a matter of history or Biblical story, all three monotheistic religions worship the same God. Any thing else is just opinion, and worth about what opinion is generally worth.
Well, but of course a Jew is going to say that the Jewish conception of G-d is more true than the Christian conception of G-d. If he thought the Christian conception was more true, he’d be a Christian.
Now, I don’t know what you believe, but I can tell you that the standard Christian conception of G-d is pretty different than the standard Jewish conception of G-d. The attributes given to G-d in Christianity are pretty different than the attributes given to Him in Judaism.
You’re right, historically Christianity comes out of Judaism, but its been two thousand years, and both religions have changed, a lot, in two thousand years. I hope I’m not insulting your beliefs by saying this. I know it’s historically been important in Christianity to believe in a continuity between Judaism and Christianity (in fact, that’s been one of the causes of conflict between Judaism and Christianity. Christians have said to Jews, “Christianity is the fufillment and natural outgrowth of Judaism. You should convert.”)
However, the doctrines of the trinity and the incarnation represent major gulfs between Christianity and Judaism. The trinity, which seems to be a major part of a lot of Christianity, is completely foreign to the Jewish conception of G-d. From a Jewish perspective, it’s completely false and completely misrepresents what and who G-d is.
The traditional Jewish answer is that there were three angels visiting Abraham.
Zev Steinhardt
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Whoa! Hold up a minute. Again you’re throwing words into my mouth. I never said that the Christian God is polytheistic. I simply said that he is a triune God. If that simple statement is wrong, please tell me so and I will stop repeating it. You can certainly believe that he is triune and yet one and consider it monotheistic, no? I wasn’t telling you what you have to believe or not. I was simply giving you what I think the concept of the Christian god is based on what I’ve been told by Christians. If I’m wrong, please correct me and I’ll stand corrected.
In any event, Jodi, I am now asking you, as a Christian. Is the Christian god a “3 in 1” god or not?
quote:
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That’s fair enough. As Captain America pointed out, obviously I hold that any God containing Jesus as an aspect thereof is wrong. If I didn’t hold that position, I’d be a Christian. Likewise, I’m sure you hold my rejection of Jesus to be wrong as well, no? So, we’ll simply have to leave it as that we agree to disagree.
I agree with you that both Christianity and Islam have roots in Judaism. That does not necessarily mean, however, that the Christian, Islamic and Jewish dieties are all the same. Since (in Jewish tradition, anyway), the pre-Jesus concept of God did not contain Jesus, then we consider it as that Christians changed their concept of God. Thus the two concepts of a diety are no longer the same.
Zev Steinhardt
I think, Jodi, that you are misdirecting your ire - if anyone deserves blasting for the polytheism argument, it is my arguments and not Zev’s. 
I went over to www.Catholic.org , which I assume accurately represents the Catholic Church’s view of such things. The section on saints was consistent with what various Catholics have said here…
My warped mind immediately created a Bob Newhart sketch in my mind.
telephone rings, God picks up the phone
What? George who? No, Marge, I don’t want to answer his prayer – he is a nobody. Just put him into voicemail.
hangs up telephone
telephone rings again, God picks up the phone
What now Marge? Oh, St. Monica? Calling on behalf of George. Okay, fine, put her through. …
Getting back to the task at hand, however, the whole Marian thing seems to be more suspect.
There is a whole page of prayers TO Mary. Not “with” mary, to her. For example:
and
and
There are others.
It seems to me that some of those accepted prayers are treating Mary as divine.
Zev: The “3 in 1” god concept of Deity also depends on which branch of Christianity you ask. Some follow that concept, some don’t.
I take your point.
At the risk of restating a point already made, all this shows is that you (and others) consider that Catholics hold towards Mary an attitude which you consider ought properly to be held only to God. It does not show that Catholics consider Mary to be God. It does show a point of difference in your conception of God and the Catholic conception of God.
Just to be clear - the language of these prayers is flowery (and not all of them enjoy any kind of official approval or traditional acceptance). But Mary is invited to pray (to God) and to intercede with Him for the person offering the prayer, she is described as an “advocate”, she was “prepared by God” and “kept sinless” by Him. None of these are things which could be said to or about God.
I entirely accept that there is also talk of “devotion” to Mary, of Mary “giving grace” to the person offering the prayer, and so forth. These are things which, in Jewish and Muslim (and many Christian) traditions could only be said to or about God.
But, I repeat - this illustrate differing conceptions of God. It does not illustrate that Catholic or Orthodox Christians consider Mary to be God.
Well, I did exempt the Unitarians in my comments. If there are others that go along with that as well, then fine. But is it safe to say that the good majority of Christians do follow the doctrine of the Trinity?
Zev Steinhardt
Yes. Most Christians are Trinitarians. And many of those would deny that anyone who is not a Trinitarian can be a Christian.
The Unitarians are (obviously) not Trinitarian. I think that the Latter Day Saints hold to a view of God which is not Trinitarian, or at any rate not conventionally so. The Jehovah’s Witnesses are not Trinitarian.
Come to think of it, zev, it doesn’t matter what view (trinitarian or not) a particular sect of Christiany follows. All that’s relevant in this thread’s OP is that both Christianity and Islam are descended, each in their own way, from Judaism. Thus, the deity of Christians and the deity of Muslims is the same deity stipulated in the Old Testament as interpreted by the two new groups: Christians and Muslims.
I don’t know much about Islam, but I believe, IMHO, that the God of the old testament is the same one of the New.
So…in a way you could say the Jews worship the same God as “Christians”, however, the christians just think Jesus is God too.
Am i making sense?
I don’t know that that follows. All that shows is that, at the point of divergence between Christianity and Judaism, for example, the two religions shared the same conception of G-d. That doesn’t mean the conceptions didn’t change. So, you could argue, as I am, and that I think Zev is, that Christians and Jews have different understandings of G-d, and each group says that their conception of G-d is the same as the G-d portrayed in the “Old Testament”.
Thank you for simplifying the point Captain Amazing. I would just like to further add that since the divergence of opinions on the conception of God (whether you want to say it was the Jews who diverged, the Christians, the Muslims or any combination of the three is not really important, as it’s a matter of religious opinion), you can no longer say that (as currently understood) they are the same being.
Zev Steinhardt
While I agree (and have argued) that the attributes of the diety as understood by the three religions are not the same, I can see why believers would assert that the three are essentially the same diety - and not just based on historical development (which everyone agrees with).
If a person is a believer, and truly believes in his or her religion and the reality of his or her god, the existence of that god is a fundamental fact. That god created the universe, and has always existed and always will exist.
Whatever people worship, whether they know it or not, is that true, real god - other “gods” simply do not exist, they are figments or alternatively they are simply disguises or interpretations of that real, existing god. Like people using different words in different languages, the fact that different terms are used to refer to the diety does not matter.
Naturally, a believer has faith that his or her interpretation of what that god is like is the correct one. Other people with different interpretations are wrong. But that in no way affects the reality - that (assuming a transendental god exists) there is only one real god, and everyone who prays (whether they know it or not) prays to him, her or it.
I think we’re all on the same page here, and nobody’s disagreed with what I’ve said.
There are two ways to answer the question, one of which is based on history and/or Biblical mythos, and under that the answer is “Yes, they all worship the same God.” The other way to answer it is to ask a Christian or Jew or Muslim if they believe all three religions worship the same God. Then the answer will depend on who you ask. To me, it’s about as fruitful as asking whether the OT God is primarily a just God or a vengeful God – depends on who you ask, and what beliefs and motivations they bring to the discussion.
CAPTAIN AMAZING –
I know that Jews reject incarnation and the trinity; if they didn’t, they’d be Christians. But I would merely point out that while both religions may have changed a lot in 2000 years, those to objectionable points have been there since day one. I don’t know what I’ve said that leads anyone to think I don’t understand the Jewish position; I do. The difference is that I do not privately consider you a bunch of idolaters for disagreeing with me. Make no mistake: Some Christians do. Some Christians believe that any ideation of God that does not embrace Christ is a false ideation, and therefore an idol, making you guys a bunch of idolatrous Jews. But I’m a moderate Christian, not a fundie one, and that’s not something I believe.
And lest I be misunderstood: I’m not ticked off about this, nor am I intentionally directing “ire” anywhere. I realize that some Jews believe as a matter of faith that the Christian God is either polytheistic or false or both. I have no right to attack that belief, anymore than I do any other faith-based decision that doesn’t negatively impact how I live my life, and I am not trying to do so. I have far too much respect for many of our Jewish posters, who I know are good, respectful people who are simply trying to follow their faith to the best of their ability as it is given to them to understand it. As am I.
I will say, however, that I find it very interesting that what I seem to be hearing from the Jewish posters here is that they know and can affirmatively can declare what God is, or can be, or can contain. He cannnot change. He cannot reveal an aspect of Himself that was previously hidden. I realize – again – that these are all aspects of believe, but it seems to me that Christians (moderate ones, at least) as less likely to talk about what God cannot do or be.
ZEV –
I don’t know what you mean by a “3 in 1” god. Three aspects contained in one god, as you contain a mind, a soul, and emotions? Yes. Three gods contained in the body of one god? No. There is only one God. But I do not ask and have jnever asked that you or any Jew agree with me as a Christian that the Trinity is either possible or correct. Of course you don’t believe it; your a Jew. But to say that it amounts to a different God is your religious opinion, and obviously not mine.
And FWIW, I am not saying you have said my god is polytheistic, necessarily, but I do think you have said He is a false god. And how could you say anything else? That’s what you believe. But surely you can see that that while I may be happy to discuss the matter infinitely as philosophy or religion, on some tiny emotional level, I’m about as happy to be told I worship an idolatrous god as you would be if I said – ever so respectfully and regretfully – the same thing to you. There’s nothing to be done about it, of course. But does it bother me on some level – sure. Of course it does.
Of course I can say that. I do say that. The Christian God, the Muslim God, and the Jewish God are all the same God. The God of the Old Testament and, by extension, the God of the New. The God of Abraham and Moses is the God of Jesus and Paul. What you mean, of course, is that you wouldn’t say that. Which takes us right back to the beginning: Is this one God? Historically speaking? Yes. As a matter of belief? Depends on who you ask.
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Well, these statements that we make about what God can and/or cannot do come to us from our religious teachings. And that’s what they are. As a non-Jew, you are certainly free to reject those teachings. I’m not telling you what to believe. I suppose I could add “According to my religious beliefs” or “According to the Jewish POV” before every sentence, but I didn’t really feel that that was necessary, rather that it was understood.
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I meant composed of (in whatever fashion) the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
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And I never said that you did.
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And that’s all I was stating.
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I’m sorry that it bothers you Jodi. That certainly wasn’t my intention. I happen to respect your opinion on these boards. You earned it when we last had a rather intense religious debate over a year ago on whether or not God could be the messiah. We disagreed vehemently on that point as we disagree now. But despite the fact that we disagree I certainly did not mean to hurt your feelings on any level, and if I have done so, I apologize.
Deep down, of course, you know that I believe what I do and will continue to do so; as I know that you will continue to believe as you do; even though those two beliefs are mutually exclusive. I am not hurt by the thought that you (and other Dopers whom I respect on this board) think that my religious beliefs are wrong, and I did not think that you would be hurt by my believing that your religious beliefs are wrong.
Of course it all comes down to a matter of personal belief. Since neither you nor I have interviewed God and asked Him exactly what His nature is, our religious beliefs are all we have to go on.
Zev Steinhardt
To my way of thinking (and if this flies in the face of Vatican dogma, I’ll take my excommunication like a man), the Trinity is not all that complicated:
There is exactly one God, no more and no less.
This one God has, for reasons of his own, chosen to reveal himself to humanity in three different forms: as YHWH (the God who made a covenant with Abraham, and whom Jesus called the Father), in the person of Jesus, and through the Spirit. If it suited him, I imagine God could find a host of other ways to manifest himself to us, but for now, those three are it. Calling God “triune” seems an unnecessarily complicated way of saying that.
Astorian, before you hear from Cardinal Ratzinger, check out the Modalist heresy in The Catholic Encyclopedia.