And the Church of the SubGenius doesn’t! Call that justice?! :mad:
Just came across this Pit thread, very relevant to the OP.
Princhester I would like to revisit the notion of altruism and religion. Basically, I don’t buy that ants are capable of altruism if they are not capable of religion. The true test of altruism is whether or not it applies outside of your kinship group. When there is no immediate discernable benefit for being nice to someone, that is altruism. Gathering crumbs for the queen’s larva is not exactly altruistic as the organic structure of an ant colony doesn’t have the notion of the ‘individual’.
So my comment about altruism and religion is that if they are smart enough for the abstraction of altruism then they are smart enough for the abstraction of religion. That does not mean I am saying they are one and the same.
So if a human being helps feed their brother, that is not altruism, that’s basic survival. Washing a leper’s feet, that’s altruism. I’m not claiming Jesus invented it, only that the religion itself was built around a connection other than kinship groups. Diogenes makes a good point about the many divisive statements that Jesus made as evidence against Christianity’s universality. I think what is generally meant by Christianity’s universality, is that anyone from any tribe can become a Christian. I don’t know as much about Buddhism, but I have read debates on the topic that in a nutshell place two different major themes that separate the two. Buddhism seeks to nullify the identity whereas Christianity seeks to find/create an identity. I don’t know that Buddha was seeking to create a community specifically, as he was trying to get rid of all identity.
Well the Scientologists are gonna have to get cracking if they even want to compare to the rampant violence of Joshua. People talk about Scientologist cruelty and mayhem, but the blood on their hands isn’t even comparable to other religions. Maybe they are more ruthless than the Bahai, but even the Mormons make Scientologists look like the Nerf version.
Except that if the events in Joshua did really happen, they happened at least 3000 years ago. Bad things happened a long time ago. What does that have to do with anything in contemporary religion?
Not as such, but many religions–some of which are not widely considered cults, despite making pronouncements and proclaimations that are wackier than Hunter S. Thompson on a bender in Los Vegas–have certainly engaged in pogroms, mass persecutions, and suppression. They say that “no one expects the Spanish Inquisition,” but in fact any organized religion, when it becomes influential enough, is prone to directing its energies on persecuting people who disagree with it, and on the scale of things, Scientology has been involved in relatively few deaths, especially compared to other mainstream belief systems.
I’m not defending Scientology, which is as manufactured as Miracle Whip on Wonder Bread and has about just as much substance, but if one wants to compare it to other religions–say, Catholicism, Lutherianism, Islam, Judism, et cetera–it certainly comes away with far less blood on its hands, and it’s not much more of a cult than people who believe that a guy nailed to two pieces of wood for saying what a good idea it would be to be pleasent to and fair with each other rather than all of this nasty fighting and raping and plundering and whatnot is going to come back to life and lift them bodily into heaven. Compared to that, aliens in interstellar DC-9s seem almost tame.
Stranger
Apparently this point can’t be made often enough:
Directly comparing the sins of Scientology, which have been racked up in the past 55 years and continue to this day, to those committed by other religions over hundreds if not thousands of years (during most of which time freedom of speech and religion were not considered basic human rights), without adjusting for these differences, is bound to lead to invalid conclusions.
For what it’s worth, I’m not crazy about religious organizations, but some are clearly worse than others.
On a side note, no mainstream religion holds that Jesus was crucified for saying everyone should be nice, although I do agree that most religions do make extraordinary claims. A key difference between the claims of most religions and those of Scientology is that the origins of the former are shrouded in mystery whereas the latter can be traced to a single, recent source, about whom we have plenty of damning documentary evidence.
Ok. Then compare anything scientologists have done to the plight of Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank.
Joshua never happened. All sorts of people 2500 years ago, religious and non-religious, thought that the proper way to handle a recalcitrant city was to burn it to the ground, enslave some and kill others. Anyhow, if you’re going to believe in Bible stories, God is mass murderer numero uno.
I don’t know enough about the myths of Scientology to know if Xenu or someone was nasty. Doesn’t matter. Mormons haven’t been too bad for a while. I bought my house from a Mormon family, and there are dungeons or torture instruments. I know what they did 150 years ago - it would be interesting to see what Scientologists would do if they were in charge and away from civilization.
I do know they ripped off an old girlfriends brother, and got thwarted only because he wasn’t 18 years old yet. Another friend’s brother was a high official, and eventually wouldn’t let his father see his grandchildren in order to preserve them in the ways of the cult.
Not the same. That would be like blaming the Catholic Church for the sins of the Mafia - or blaming Scientology for bad acting by Tom.
Personally, I find the Xenu mythology rather overblown and misstated by most Scientology opponents. I think this origin myth is a way of stimulating and subduing the subconscious mind. Aligning it so to speak, giving it a history and blind. Much in the same way that other Secret Societies (Free Masons, Oddfellows, Shriners, et al.) have the great masquerades, levels (partitioned knowledge and secrets), and mysticism incorporated. Pretty common tenant of all religion…From the lay to the clergy. I am not defending them… but it doesn’t seem anymore unusual than Herculean Jesus.
Remember that the Xenu mythology is only available to Scientologists who have reached OTIII (a fairly high level), which means the majority of Scienos know nothing about the origin story. The foundation for the religion seems to lie in the self-improvement aspects; that’s what draws people in, and that’s why many stick with it, even though the logic behind the ‘improvements’ gets shakier with every hoop you jump through. Luckily for Scientology, the courses that help improve your “level” also break down your critical thinking ability, which means by the time you get to Xenu, you’re lucky if you’re not a total fuckwit.
In its essence, though, I don’t find the beliefs of Scientology any more ridiculous than those of Christianity. I used to be all for denigrating the religion and its followers, but now I don’t think that’s particularly fair, or civilized. If people feel they are getting benefit from auditing and going up levels (like in an RPG, I know…), then good for them. It’s really just the structure of the Church of Scientology that’s worth heaping all our scorn upon, as it’s designed to break down people’s minds, isolate them from non-believers, acquire as much money from its members, and destroy its enemies.
It does kinda sound like the Catholic Church of the Middle Ages-- actually a much less extreme version! If the Vatican was still like that now, I would also support its annihilation; hell, even terrorist bombings may be called for, considering its cruel iron grip in certain places. But since the Catholic Church has mellowed out and the CoS remains as sinister as ever, the latter is a legitimate target to reform or dismantle, and yes, openly ridicule. Take down the Church, and let Scientology remain, as Free Zoners (non-CoS Scientologists). That’s essentially the ultimate goal of the current Anonymous movement.