Who said we weren’t seeking? You are the one who is set in a belief of a benevolent being that controls our destiny…not us!
Dreamer, as someone who believes much as you do, I sometimes find it hard to understand the perspective of others. But here goes:
In the world around us, the evidence for God’s existence is something that is truly debatable. It is quite possible to conceive of the world as existing without His having created it – and many who read Scripture literally take a stance that seems to contradict the findings of science and the theories founded on those findings. (I hope Joe Cool, who can explain the conservative Christian stance on this much better than I, drops by to clarify that idea.)
My understanding of the world involves the active work of God Who created a universe through what we understand as the Big Bang and who uses such things as punctuated equilibrium to bring forth new (biological) life on Earth, who thought that the three laws of thermodynamics and so forth were interesting ways to develop a complex and fascinating universe. However, it’s relatively easy to conceive of a physical realm in which God has no active part; even many Christians draw a line between God’s creation (and the natural way in which things happen in it) and His supposed supernatural acts intervening to change things from the way they’d happen “naturally.”
The other available evidence is that available to the believer through faith – which is necessarily subjective, and not transferrable except as someone might say that, hey, Polycarp seems to have his head on straight, and so if he says that God was present to him, he’s probably not a candidate for the white jacket with the long sleeves for saying so.
Finally, there have been a plethora of threads discussing how unlikely the evidence of Scripture might be. For some good examples of God supposedly doing or commanding stuff that most of us would see as totally contrary to the work of an ethical, loving God, note gobear’s post above.
And, of course, the exclusivity of most interpretations of the Christian message does draw that line between God-as-understood-by-Christian-teachers and, e.g., Allah, Brahman, the Confucian Lord of Heaven, etc. Many people, including most UUs, can see the idea that God attempts to get His message across through people who insist on superimposing their own preconceptions on what He has to say – but others draw the sort of line that had the SBC leadership calling Mohammed a “demon-possessed pedophile” as noted in the news and a couple of Pit threads recently.
Well, I appreciate the non-kook comment…
Like I said, though, I was using the wager to illustrate that there’s at least some degree of reason involved in the religious mindset. (The concept of “pure faith” goes in one ear and out the other with me, although I don’t see faith as worthless.)
EchoKitty, I’m going to answer your question, you may not like it, but it is the only answer I can give.
Everyone is free right now at this very moment to make a choice. To choose to believe something. Now we can argue all day long how one thinks theirs is right and the others aern’t. What I’m saying though is that the Bible says (Maththew7:7) “Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.”
God didn’t just decide one day to pick dreamer and to open her eyes and let her see what so many others don’t - I was searching. I was seeking. I didn’t know which God I was looking for, I was just looking. Why did I end up in Christianity? I can’t pretend to say I don’t know. I can’t be afraid that you all are gonna jump all over what I say next and rip me to shreds. I can’t deny that the God I know and love is wonderful to me and loves me unconditionally. That’s my belief, my knowledge, the world I live in. For me it’s the right way and I would choose no other.
God has not left you or anyone else “out in the cold”. You make the choice to Not believe in him, so what is he suppossed to do? He cannot and will not force anyone to believe - that’s impossible anyway. You have to make the choice. I do know (yes, the knowing thing again 
) that he is always there at the door and if you are interested even the slightest little bit - truly and honestly - you will find him.
If you’ve just done this :rolleyes: to what you just read, then I have no other answers to give. I will do my best to answer your questions in the most honest way I can. I am no better than you or any more special than anyone. Believe me my life sometimes is completely disastrous and I often question why I’ve chosen to believe the way I do. It’s deep down inside though and it’s a love and an acceptance (from God) that I’ve not been able to find anywhere else in this world.
I hope that makes sense. I wish it were easier.
I kinda feel like the minority here, but I’m ok with that.
That’s impossible. You may have strong faith that God exists, for as Paul wrote in Hebrews 11:1, “Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the confidence of things unseen.” All you have is trust in the veracity of the Gospels and the legitimacy of your own spiritual journey. But unless the Almighty has personally appeared to you, with the full-on wheel within a wheel, four living creatures with four different faces deal that Ezekiel wrote about, then you cannot *know that God exists.
When your houseplant bursts into flame without being consumed, and a deep, Charlton Hestonesque voice commands you to free the Hebrews from bondage, let us know.
It reminds me of a business trip I was on, with a couple of guys I didn’t really know very well, and we got on a religious discussion after business hours in the hotel. One of 'em told me that I seemed like a nice guy, but that I had a “God-shaped hole” in my life.
I asked him what the shape of God was, exactly, and he explained to me that everyone on Earth knows that Christ is Lord, but some of them just don’t have the courage to break through their cultural barriers or pride to receive the message, thereby damning themselves.
dreamer, it’s a lot easier to believe in hell if you think everyone else is just like you, but just being stubborn. I used to be a believer, and a very strong one at that, until the weight of evidence collapsed even my enormous faith. Like you, I was questing for the answer, but that’s the answer I found. And some people quest their whole lives, honestly and truly, and never find anything. And many find religion after much questing, but they don’t always find the same one.
I’m not really giving you the rolleyes, but do you really believe if I don’t agree with you, then I’m not being truthful and honest with myself / the universe? That’s a point of view I find pretty narcissistic.
“With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible” (Matt. 19:26).
With God all things are possible?
(Evidently, “All things” does not include the eradication of Satan or Hell.)
Um, that’s not really an answer.
Has God appeared to you in person, with a chorus of angles for backup? Have you seen a miracle (and don’t give me babies being born or the turn of seasons–I’m talking water into wine.)
What you have is faith, NOT knowledge.
That should be angels, not angles (although that would lend credence to the Pythagorean notion that numbers, especially geometry, are a key to divinity)
Dreamer,
You are a polite believer, which is fine by me.
But I have difficulty understanding your certainty.
My parents took me to church till I was 14. Then they said “Make up your own mind.”
So I asked my Sunday School teacher (who I also respected) and he said “There is no proof. It’s just down to personal faith.”
Well I’ve looked into the evidence for Jesus being the Son of God, and it doesn’t satisfy me at all. The Gospels were written between 30 - 100 years after the claimed events they describe. It’s quite likely that the actual eye-witnesses were dead, and so the testimony is second-hand.
As Gobear showed, there’s no evidence of God in the way the world works either.
There are significant irreconcilable differences between the world religions.
Finally, if God made me, then why did he make me a scientific type (who wants evidence to believe)?
I have discussed dowsing on this board, and elsewhere.
Every dowser I’ve spoken to assures me that dowsing is real - and they wonder why I don’t believe in it.
Yet every time dowsing is tested, it fails. Every time.
The Randi’ Foundation offer $1,000,000 for a single successful act of dowsing. It’s still unclaimed.
Fascinatingly, even dowsers who apply to Randi and fail, go away with their belief intact.
I don’t understand them, and I don’t understand religious belief either.
It does surprise me how each of us interprets what the other says and changes things around. I have never condemed anyone for their beliefs. I have never said “if you don’t believe my way then your not being truthful to yourself.”
Mighty Maximino, I like you :). I truly enjoy our conversations as well. I’m not here to push my beliefs on anyone. If you recall I started this thread to ask all of you why you don’t believe in God. I’m listening and responding the best I can, so please don’t accuse me of saying things I haven’t said. I’d be glad and honored if any of you would like to share what your beliefs are and how you came to believe them. I was talking to another doper last night who told me of how each time one of those religious people comes to his door he respectfully invites them in and listens to what they have to say only asking if they will give him the same amount of time to explain his beliefs to them. He said No One has ever accepted his offer. I’m not like that. I did have a nice conversation with him about his beliefs and mine and we’re still friends :).
So please, share what your beliefs are. Tell me why you think yours is right and mine are wrong. I want to know from your point of view and I want to understand what it’s like to live in your shoes when you hear about what my beliefs are.
::insert sit back and listening smiley here::
How can you say that? How do you know what I have? That’s what’s impossible here. You can say I have nothing but you couldn’t prove a thing. I’m saying I have knowledge, I know God is there. I can’t prove it either but I’ve got it.
Once again, I don’t recall ever saying that I don’t believe there are people who don’t believe in any God or God’s.
I disagree!
In fact, I’ve started a whole 'nother thread about it:
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=123063.
No, but you imply several times that the people who do not believe actually want to believe and would believe if only they could. Are you saying that or not?
Polycarp, thank you for sharing your perspective. I comepletely understand how people believe the world exists without God. They have a right to believe that and from reading all these posts and getting to know you all, I can see that it’s a belief many of you share. I don’t think, actually I know, I’ve never known (sort of) so many people who feel this way so strongly, and I do have a newfound respect for you who do.
Just to clarify that I’m reading this correctly (after reading your whole post like 5 times!), am I right in saying that you believe the world was created with the Big Bang theory? Adam and Eve are out?
Dreamer, I have just two questions for you:
- Exactly which god are you refering to in the thread title?
- How many religious paths did you seriously explore before you chose the one you are on now?
People who don’t want to believe, don’t. Obviously if they don’t want to how can anyone say they do? I do believe though, that if they wanted to believe in anything, not just God, they could. We all believe what we want, religion or not. How can anyone say that if you wanted to believe in the tooth fairy, but you never met her, you can’t believe in her.