I can’t believe I said that, I meant the 700 Club the home of religious bigotry and taking the lord’s name in vain. Jim and Tammy were crooks, but they weren’t mean spirited which is what I was trying to get at.
[sub]DAMN[/sub]
My favorite. Soon you’d have us trying to prove the existence of lawn furniture, I’m sure. This argument comes up time and time again. How do you know ANYTHING is real. You assume I exist but can you PROVE it absolutely!
It’s a terrible argument. It somehow implies that my belief “if I get up and go to work, the building I am expecting to be there will be there” is equal to a belief in a specific god. Horrible logic. I will concede that one cannot be absolutely sure of anything other than the fact that one exists. The classic “I think therefore I am” cannot prove the existence of anyone except ones self (and the pesky kids who like to throw around the word Axiom will debate you on this point). I could be abrain in a vat, so all of this could be fake.
But surely it is not pure black and white. There are levels of degree. My knowledge that the trains are real is certainly better than the incorrect knowledge that I could fly magically to work.
Which of these statements are reasonable compared to the other sentence? :
There is a grocery store on the corner.
There is an eleven foot purple moster that eats dogs on the corner.
Airports exist.
The Loch Ness Monster exists.
The chair I am about to sit on is real.
The tooth fairy exists.
I can fly.
If I jump off of a 30 story building I will die.
You see, just because people accept things based on experience and fact does not mean that reaching equal levels of conviction through incorrect information is just as reasonable. All beliefs are not equal. Those based on facts and tangible evidence are superior. They offer predictive capabilities and allow things like the internet and space shuttles.
Religion mostly just gives people a reason to be conceited. They feel that their opinions are perfect and infallible cause they JUST know! All beliefs are the same so my non-proven beliefs are just as good as your proven time and again beliefs! I MUST be right. I KNOW I am right.
Here’s a cool word: Hubris.
This is conceit, really. Ask yourelf how come different people can come to this same level of conviction, and both disagree. How can two people both know things with absolute certainty which contradict each other? The answer is that at least one of them has to be wrong. Maybe both of them. Convictions like this are worthless and offer nothing to the discussion.
Saying you can’t be wrong is one of the most foolish conceits a human can have in my book. I may be wrong.
DaLovin’ Dj
For me, I’d like to believe there’s a god, especially if the promises of heaven turn out to be true.
However, I cannot “just believe”. I cannot make myself believe without evidence or supporting arguments. I’ve tried everything that’s been asked of me: praying, baptism, reading, etc. Nothing happened. Nada. Zip. Zilch.
It may work for others, but not for me. But, of course, they tell me it’s my fault for not being “sincere”. So I honestly try. Nada again.
I’m told God will make it so I’ll “just know in my heart”. He hasn’t. Why is this valuable knowledge being withheld from me? I can say I have faith and put my trust in him, but if my mind rejects all attempts, where does that lead me?
If I say “I believe” without being able to honestly and intellectually do so, wouldn’t God see past that ploy?
Hi there dalovindj :). I know your there. I know you will read this. I know that I know that God exists FOR ME. Maybe he doesn’t exist for you or anyone else, but for me he does and I am not wrong about that.
btw what book is yours? 
Others have made similar points, but I’ll take this quote as representative. And I agree–no one chooses what they believe. Not if it’s really belief. I can choose to exert faith in something, but that’s pretending to believe. Real belief is spontaneous, and for those with a somewhat analytical frame of mind, it’s based on evidence. Our beliefs change as the evidence changes, or as our understanding of the evidence changes.
Having faith is a choice. Believing is not. Of course some disagree–this was a response to Revtim’s statement:
JThunder, while I respect the fact that you’ve examined your beliefs–a rare enough thing among believers, in my experience–I still don’t think you chose to change them. You chose to examine, you found more or different evidence, or you came to understand the evidence differently, and your beliefs changed. Could you choose to revert to your old beliefs? I doubt it. Sure, you could return to your old church, but your beliefs have changed. I submit that it was not your choice. It was your choice to question and investigate, to open yourself to the possibility of finding new evidence, but once that evidence was understood, your beliefs changed spontaneously.
At least that’s what I believe.
I’m just trying to help you out here so please don’t take this the wrong way (or anyone else for that matter).
You can say you have faith, anyone can do that, but faith is the belief in the unseen and the unknown and if your mind rejects believing in God how can you possibly do it? It sounds like your fighting with yourself where you want to truly believe, but for some reason you can’t let go of whatever it is you don’t believe. It’s no easy thing to let go of all the questions and mysteries about life and believe in a God whom you’ve never seen or spoken to. A God who leaves things unanswered and unexplained. But if you are able to look past all the emotions and intellectual stuff and pursue his word and talk with others who have been where you are, maybe you can find your way. I can’t promise that you will, but I sincerely hope you do 
“Why is it so hard to believe in God?”
Because god doesn’t want me to believe in him. Otherwise, I would.
That or he just isn’t there in the first place.
What does this mean?
Well then you’ve got the little problem of picking one out of the hundreds of gods out there. If you can “discard your disbelief,” you’ve got a lot of choices that all have just as much (Or just as little) speaking for them. It always seems like people who say stuff like this try to promote one specific god. I doubt they’d be too happy with it if the person replied with something like, “Why, thank you! I feel so much better, I can see everything clearly! I’m going to go worship… Anubis! Thanks!” (I’ve been so tempted, sometimes… )
quote:
Originally posted by dreamer
I know that I know that God exists FOR ME.
It means I, me, dreamer, knows that God exists.
And when God doesn’t exist for someone, that means they don’t know God exists, or they know God doesn’t exist? I’m confused.
Dreamer, thanks for answering.
I could take that reasoning for any of the 2500 gods out there (according to M. Jordan’s “Encyclopedia of the Gods”). All things being equal, I have a 0.04% chance of it being Yahweh. But, they are not equal: which Yahweh? The one the Jews follow, or the modified ones Christians or Muslims or Mormons believe in?
It’s like a game with thousands of paths in front of you. If I choose poorly, I get eternal damnation. If I choose not to play, I forfeit and get eternal damnation.
With stakes such as those, you’d think there’d be a little more proof than “just believe and you’ll see.” One could use that line of reasoning for any of the 2500 dieties and be no closer to “the truth”.
When I was little I thought if I could write a book like the bible, and convince people to believe that I was god, that I could actually obtain godlike powers, and topple the original god from his throne. I wanted to do this because from what I had heard, god would most likely be sending many of my friends and family into eternal punishment. When I became god, I would allow everyone into heaven.
Then I forced myself to believe that I was already god. I just sent myself to live on earth for a while with no memories so I could better understand humanity. When I die I will regain my true powers.
Finally, I realized I could not have faith in a god I hated. But I still could never believe that the things I could see, the things I could physically prove, were all the things that existed. What are the chances that I would be born randomly into the highest possible state of being?
So now I believe that there must be some higher power, although I do not believe it is as described by any religion. My only clues as to the nature of this power are my own thoughts as to what this power could be. In fact, as has been said previously in this thread, the only thing that can be proven to exist is your own thoughts. Your own imagination.
I imagine god, therefore he exists.
Dreamer, according to your logic, god exists for everyone and we’re just too stubborn to admit it. If, in fact, there is a god (and that is entirely possible), none of us have anything to worry about, because he will accept all of us. I have a hard time understand why he picks and chooses who he makes sense to, and in what form he presents himself to people. Can you explain that? Why did he choose you to be the one to “know” and “understand” him, and at the same time, leave me (and most of the other posters in this thread) out in the cold? I’m a good person. And I know a lot of bad people that have god in their lives. Why does god withhold this revelation from me?
By the way, it is a sad fact, but the truth is that this board is the only place in this country where I don’t feel like a second-class citizen because of my religious beliefs. I’m not much of a joiner, and I’m sure there are agnostic/athiest groups that I could hang out with, but this is the only place where I can converse with people without getting “that look” of amazement or disgust because I don’t believe that there is a controlling being controlling what happens to me after I die.
dreamer, not to pile on, but you ignored my earlier questions:
I ask because your further posts still indicate that you think nonbelievers really do want to believe if they could just get over those pesky doubts, evidenced by this post:
Is that what you think of all nonbelievers, that they would believe if they could just get over their doubts and fears? That they’re afraid if they do somehow come to believe in your God, then God will not love them because they used to not believe in him or because of the “things they’ve done?” (Again, what things have I done to cause your God to not love me? Other than not believing in him)
If you do feel this way, why can’t you just admit that some people just simply do not believe in any gods, not out of fear of repurcussion if they “decide” to start believing, not because they’re “afraid to let go of disbelief” or anything like that, but because the universe can be explained just as well without any gods and they have no desire to attempt to make themselves believers for some ephemeral, unlikely benefit?
As an aside, I will never understand why people who are aware of the pantheon of various gods through human history, from Og to Odin to Osiris to Odysseus to Allah, can say that their current god is the one true god and all the rest were just stories made up by people. Uh, isn’t your one true god also based on stories? All gods are the product of the human mind. In three thousand years, if humans are still around and still feel the need to believe in a god, the god will be as different from God as God is from Og.
what gives me inner peace?
read some existentialist theatre. it makes wonderful sense of the world.
the world is a horrifying, random, godless place. the only thing that can help me is me. it’s tough, i know, but once i’ve accepted that, i can start helping myself. if i’m sitting back waiting for someone to show me the way, i’m never going to get anywhere.
Hmm…
To put this simply: If there is a god, I would define god as the mechanism that started the universe. Since I happen to believe that there is a universe, then in a roundabout way I do believe in a god.
Now, the crux of the argument is whether this god has the same attributes as your god. After all, the mechanism that started the universe could have been entirely non-sentient. I find it hard to credit that anything that has the ability to create or cause a universe could possibly be so petty as to amuse itself by judging such puny creatures as ourselves. And frankly, I really don’t feel the need to have someone watching me and my actions. My actions are my own, and my consequences are my own.
exit(rant);
nahtanoj
Pascal’s Wager is a fallacy. It sets up a false dichotomy: JCI God or no god. For all we know, the possible being waiting at the end of the tunnel is Zeus or Anubis or Diancecht. Or Cthulhu, for that matter.
I’m surprised old Pascal even showed up here, especially in the post of a non-kook Doper like Res…I’d thought the Wager had been thoroughly debunked.
jayjay
Well, maybe so - But if you don’t seek you will never find anything, unless that’s what you want. All the best to you