Why is it so hard to get a federal job?

Factual Questions
21

A few other points. Agencies can define the qualifications for a position, but the initial screening of applicants is often done by an independent HR group (still within the agency but independent of the group trying to fill a position), or sometimes by the Office of Personnel Management. Even if it’s by an independent group, the OPM rules have to be followed. The HR staff is often unfamiliar with what the position requires, and they may not understand when someone’s response actually demonstrates they have the qualifications and when they don’t. On top of that, they are subject to OPM audit, so their goal is to make sure the i’s are dotted and the t’s are crossed, not necessarily to provide the most qualified candidates from the applicant pool. Lesson - read the application very carefully and slowly, and do exactly what it says.

There are applicants who “game” the system and state their answers as positively as the system allows, even if their resume and written answers demonstrate that they are “stretching the truth,” to be kind. Those who are honest may not make it through the first cut, because the HR folks will look at the yes/no and multiple choice responses and ignore the written material because they don’t fully understand it. Only after HR makes their decision about who is qualified and who isn’t do the remaining applications go to the subject matter expert and the hiring decision maker. Lesson - answer the questions as optimistically as you truthfully can.

Because of this, when the office who wants to hire someone finally gets the approved list of applicants, there often is no one on the list who is truly qualified. In that case, the decision is made to not hire anyone, and the process has to start again at the beginning. If there are any errors in the entire process, either actual or perceived, then the process may be halted and have to re-start. I’ve seen this happen when the announcement discussed a relatively small part of an agency (one that would not be widely recognized) and neglected to note that this organization was a part of a larger, well-known federal agency. The announcement had gone through the entire process of preparation, approval, and posting when this was noticed, and the decision was made to halt the process and start over with the larger agency name in place of the sub-organizational name.

As far as job security goes, there is a lot of truth in that. But there are other key motivators for working for the federal government. Let’s face it, you can play with some pretty neat toys in the military or Defense Department. You also have opportunities to get involved in making national or international policy, usually much more so than if you’re outside of the government. There are definitely some jobs where you’re going to have to put in some long hours, but for the most part, the regulations say that most feds only have to work 40 hrs/wk, and that additional hours have to be compensated in some way, such as equal time off. For many professionals, that’s a very nice benefit compared to commercial firms where it’s usually expected that you’ll put in 60 hrs/wk or more, all for one low, low price.

BTW, my understanding is that it’s a 3-year probationary period, not just 1 year. I think that someone can be terminated relatively easily within that probationary period (e.g., it’s just not working out). After that, though, it can be done, but it requires significant documentation of extended poor performance and efforts to correct the problems.

(Edit) Forgot to note that the process isn’t easily rigged - there may well be specific people that are targeted, but the OPM-driven process goes a long way to make that difficult. That’s not to say it doesn’t happen - it can and does - but from what I’ve seen, there is more interest in bringing in people who are qualified than in people that are known.

22

scrambledeggs, this is not a debate. You have received instructions from several different Moderators to pay better attention to where you post. It really is not that hard to figure out.

I am going to move this thread to General Questions because it provides useful information to other posters, however, I am also issuing a formal Warning that you had better pay attention to the sort of posts you place in the various Fora and stop making work for the staff.
[ /Moderating ]

23

A, um, friend of mine is a DoD contractor, and he works very closely with civil servants. Literally side-by-side.

Some of his observations (many of which may be defined as IMHO, sorry mods):

  1. It’s been his observation that many federal jobs are wired toward someone they already know. Rarely do they hire an unknown off the street.

  2. When it comes to DoD jobs, many are taken by former military personnel. Former military duty is almost a prerequisite.

  3. It’s not as difficult as you might think to fire a civil servant. He knows one who might be abusing his sick time, and his supervisor is quietly keeping track of it.

  4. A government job is not a secure job. My friend has more security than those guys. Why? Because the civil servants have little control over their future - their existence is based on the whims and mercy of Congress. If Congress cuts their funding, they’re gone, or at the very least they’re transferred. Him? He has lots of options, and he is in control of his destiny based on his value in the market.

  5. Working in the civil servant world can be depressing, according to my friend. There is a lot of politics, posturing and backstabbing. There is an incredible amount of bureaucracy. The biggest problem, though, is the lack of incentive for being efficient and making customers happy (due to a lack of market competition). Many spend their entire career in a ho-hum lazy fashion. It’s not the work environment my friend would want.

24

After I graduated from college, I applied for an entry-level job at the State Department.

I was one of 40,000 people who took the Foreign Service Exam that year.

I was one of 14,000 people who were called in for interviews and more tests.

For 250 jobs.

<sigh> I would have been halfway to retirement by now. If only . . . . . .

25

bordelond has pretty well nailed it. The KSA portion is critical, and if you don’t address every single detail of those sections, you will be rejected. The bigger horror, IMO, is actually getting hired and having to work for the bastards, but that’s a different thread.

Re the security check: when I applied to the State Department, it took them two years to finish the background check before I was offered the job. A lot of applicants just disappear over the horizon in that amount of time.

26

I know a lot of people with federal and state and county jobs and the one thing in common they all have is everyone has gotten the job by knowing someone who works for that department.

I knew a guy who worked at the Driver’s License facility and everyone there got the job because they were affiliated with someone who ran and was elected for office.

Does this mean they are corrupt? Absolutely not, they still have to pass tests and qualify, if they don’t pass the test they won’t get it, but what it boils down to is if two people pass the test and one worked for a political person who is now in office, he gets it. If two people pass the test and one has a friend (aka reference) who already works at the government office, he gets it.

This is the basic problem of government today. Look at places like the Chicago CTA, all inspectors were once line employees, which translates to, “I have friends still working so I won’t rat on them.” Thus the bad service.

27

I am in the process of applying for a Federal government job. As part of that hiring process I signed an agreement NOT to disclose details of said hiring process because it is a security position.

Let me just say that the screening process for this position WILL weed out a lot of candidates. I’m currently in my 5th month of the process, and was just informed I have to take an extra step because of an item on my medical exam (keep in mind I have no problems passing an FAA physical to fly airplanes - I’m pretty darn healthy).

Is any of this unreasonable? Um… probably not, just long and bureaucratic. On the other hand, if I am eliminated from the candidate pool I’m pretty sure it will be because of a rule universally applied to position applicants and not because a hiring manager doesn’t like the neighborhood I live in, my last name, my gender, or other irrelevant stuff. I still won’t like being passed over, but it because I didn’t meet the requirements. A lot of the time involved is documenting stuff - yes, they really do want you to go back decades.

I’m sure the process varies for different agencies and positions. I’m sure in some areas there is nepotism, but not in all.

28

notlikely, what federal jobs do you know of where it helps to know people already in the job? Except for Presidential appointees, I don’t know of any such jobs, and, as I said, Presidential appointees are a tiny proportion of federal jobs. Most people I know of in federal jobs knew no one at the agency they went to work for.

29

In my experience they advertise jobs that are never intended to get filled, for one thing. And yes, there’s nepotism so you have to advertise your job even though you have no intention of giving it to anyone but Mary Jane’s cousin Sally Sue down in HR.

30

Vets can go to the Department of LAbor and the the Merit Systems Protection Board (MSPB). If both fail they can go to District Court.

Federal Employees can go to MSPB and to Federal District Court if that fails.

**Duckster **you are right overall about my first post & point well taken but because you know this I know you know it wasn’t the part you quoted that was wrong. There absolutely is legal Veteran (and possibly RIF preference) going on as part of Why it is so hard to get a federal jobs). The point your post makes correctly and where I overstated: Veterans, Disabled Veterans and people eligible under other Veteran’s programs get some point bonus - lets say 10 points. I overstated and should have said Some Veterans, Disabled Veterans and people eligible under other Veteran’s programs blahblah… that was a mistake & you corrected it - just want to make clear for others what you rightly corrected

31

Well, I am not notlikely, but my Bro was a Fed. The inside help you get as an outsider is help with filling out the forms exactly right, submitting the forms at the right times and right places, and getting hints and tips on the interview process. He said it really helped to have a buddy on the inside. And this was for a mass hire.

A single opening and there’s too great a chance that they already have an insider lined up for it, but it’s a sort of job that has to be listed for all applicants.

32

DrDeth, that’s different from what I thought notlikely meant. That’s not saying much more than if your father was a doctor, it’s more likely that you will become a doctor. I and most of my friends are federal workers. We didn’t know anybody who was a federal worker when we got out of college or grad school. We just applied for whatever jobs fit our degrees and happened to get the federal jobs we’re in now.

33

I was hired as a civilian employee in 1985 after 11 years of active duty in the Navy. I had sent in a number of applications (back when they were all on paper) but it turned out my “in” was an introduction. A woman I was working with at the time was married to a man who worked in the same office as the man who hired me. It wasn’t truly cronyism because John and Fred weren’t bowling buddies or anything - they just worked in cubicles in the same building.

The advantage was that I spoke directly with John before my application was dumped in the great mixing bowl of SF171s or whatever they were at the time. Plus, John was in desperate need of engineers and my application had the right words on it. Since there was a direct hire authority for engineers, I managed to come on board within 3-4 months of application. So while I did have a friend on the inside, all that did was open a door a crack.

Trying to move from one job to another was a nightmare for me. For example, even with 9 years of specific experience, even with knowing people and having my boss and his boss put in a good word for me, I was unable to transfer from one facility to another. The one and only offer I got was for a lateral move (while I was going from an inexpensive area to the DC region) into a position that would have required 40% travel - that’s being on the road 2 day a week on average. Now, unfortunately, being very senior and not wanting to be a manager, I’m pretty much stuck where I am. Which is fine - I’ll stay put till I retire. Still, being in doesn’t necessarily make it simple to move around within.

The one that amazes me is the situation of my son-in-law. He’s applied for several NAF government jobs - that’s non-appropriated funds - working in the recreation facilities on base (gym, pool, bowling alley…) These are part-time positions paying from $8-$12/hr. The woman in HR who took his paperwork said it’d be at least a month or two before he’d hear anything. It’s no wonder they had so many vacancies - who’s going to sit around twiddling their thumbs for 2 months for a part-time job that pays just a little over minimum? I suppose it’s to ensure fairness, but doggone, it seems silly for a position where one rents shoes to sailors…

34

Every agency is different. I was hired off the street for one of the “mind-boggling competitive” jobs. The process from beginning to end took almost a year. After 10 years, I’m considering moving to another agency and the process has been unproductive at best - even being on the “inside.”

35

There are lots of good suggestions here. Just keep in mind:

The federal government is not a monolithic employer. There may be laws, regulations and policies when it comes to federal hiring and employment that apply to [del]all[/del] [del]some[/del] quite a bit of the federal agencies. You actually have to work at it as to which agencies you may wish to target to get in the door.

Know your strengths and apply for those jobs that reflect this. The object is to get hired and into the system. If you can that dream job and/or agency the first time around, good for you. If not, don’t sweat it.

Speak with the contact person listed with a current available position. Read the online ad, find the phone number and call them. (Don’t email them or send a letter.) Be polite, inquisitive and ask questions. Most of all be open and honest. The more you know, the better off you will be. And never be rude to the person the phone. It may come back to haunt you.

Write a thorough master application. Your master application (using the required standard form) should list every job you have ever had in your entire life. You will not send in this master app, but use it to select the jobs most appropriate for the job you apply. All this preliminary work will not hurt you as many federal agencies will eventually want your life story. (My current master fed app I keep updated runs 50 pages. From that my applying application runs about 30 pages. Yes, that’s correct. A two-page resume doesn’t work in my field.)

Be prepared for a long haul. Uncle Sam is always hiring. It may not be in your field, desire, location, agency, etc., at the moment.

You need to check USAJobs every day. Sometimes twice a day. I’ve know some positions are open as little as one day. Many are open for 21 days.

Never lie on a federal job application. If you do, you will eventually get caught. Security is getting tighter for every federal job these days.

The federal government is like any other potential employer. People get hired on the basis of their skills, the needs of the employer, and yes, any contacts you might have within the system. It’s what you know and who you know that works best.

Look into temporary positions. They come in all shapes and sizes. A great place to get your foot in the door.

The hiring process can take a long time. Be prepared for six months to a year. As much as agencies are trying to speed up and streamline this process, the added security programs slow it back down. Sometimes your past history helps, or hinders here.

Apply. Apply. Apply. When I returned to federal service, I applied to as many as ten positions a day. Everyday. For six months. It was also a time when paper applications were the best bet. Electronic applications are so easy now.

Good luck.

36

Duckster, that was a nice summary and is in line with my experience. I would add that the Federal government is moving to what they call “SmartCards” for IDs. They are supposed to be able to be used in any location, and for any agency, depending upon your level of clearance and need to be in a given location. But they all require a fairly extensive background check, including investigators who canvass your co-workers, neighbors, and look into your previous places of residence, not to mention academic and previous work experience.

The other point to make is that the Feds are moving toward increasing levels of consolidation, e-business, and outsourcing for a lot of administrative services. Those practices that save businesses money are being imported into the government in a big way, and there is increasing pressure to move unproductive people out. That pressure will likely continue to build, and although it will also be likely that it will always be harder to fire someone for poor performance in the government than in the private sector, it’s going to be harder and harder for complete slackers to have a long and restful career by doing nothing for the government. If nothing else, that function is going to be outsourced as well. :wink:

notlikely, I currently work for the Feds, and did not know a single person at that agency before I started work there. I’m still there, and although there are instances where someone has a personal relationship with an applicant, I can’t think of an instance where that alone has led to someone being hired. We are pretty picky about who we hire, and we want the most qualified people we can get. Our work is fairly specialized, so we can’t afford to simply bring in a warm body. What does help is to have solid references from people we work with and trust. The next best is solid references from schools and other organizations we trust. Both of those are true for any organization.

Crafter_Man, I don’t agree with contractors having more job security than the Feds. A big reason for using contractors is that contract funding can be cut a lot more easily that cutting Federal staff. Laying off Feds usually ends up in a huge political mess, whereas cutting contractor staff is often much easier and quicker. In either case, it really comes down to your point about having marketable skills. I know Feds who could walk out and make a good 50% more in salary than they do now, but with a big cut in quality of life (more hours, more time away from home, etc.). I also know contractors who allegedly have 20 years experience, but it’s more like 2 years of experience, repeated ten times. There are excellent Feds and those who I wouldn’t hire to cut my lawn. There are also excellent contractors, and those I definitely wouldn’t pay to cut my lawn. It’s all based on the person, not who they work for.