The title says it all. I’ve noticed this in conversations on this board and others. Is this a case of misplaced anger? Are liberals afraid that if they express anger or disgust at Muslim behavior they might somehow be considered expressing support for Bush?
You haven’t noticed it. You made it up because you’ll believe anything to smear people you don’t like.
:smack: What I ment to say was
Why is it that the more murderous Muslims become the more the more liberals complain about Christians?
FWIW I am not a christan myself
Exactly. There are plenty of us libruls and modrits who would, given a chance, gladly blow away a Bin Laden, and even pay for the privilege. Given a chance, we’d also be happy to give Bush his walking papers too. So while not completely equivalent, it all sort of evens out. So Jeff, what say you? Anything other than “teh libruls r sux0r”??
To the limited extent this might be true, it is probably because in the U.S. there is no significant Muslim vote. Whereas evangelical Protestantism and conservative Catholicism are important political forces.
No one expects the Spanish Inquisition.
On this side of the pond, we have different Christians to the US.
They believe in evolution.
They don’t believe in the Rapture.
They don’t think ‘liberal’ or ‘socialist’ is a dirty word. (We even have political parties with those words in the name :eek: )
And **of course ** they don’t support Bush.
Suggestion: If you don’t want this to become a pissing contest, provide some examples. And even then, you probably won’t get very far unless you want to debate specific points of view by specific people. “LIberals” don’t have a hive mind any more than “conservatives” do.
Somewhat ironic, given that the Rapture was essentially the creation of British evangelist John Nelson Darby. Like many other bad (and good) ideas American, the Brits started it.
The two are unrelated issues. Have any examples of what you’re talking about where a liberal is linking them in some way?
You goddam civilized types. Trying to make us look bad.
FOR THE RECORD:
Many Christians here (even us heretics known as Catholics (giggle) believe in evolution - with the approval of our pope even.
Many of us view the Rapture as a made up fairy tale - again with the full approval of our pope.
Have no problem with liberals, or even socialists (unless it’s The Commies, it’s still OK to fear them I think).
We don’t support Bush. Many wish he would just leave quietly.
There’s no way to call them on it, without falling into the No True Scotsman trap.
And what religion do you think most liberals belong to?
I’m a liberal who has complained about Christians. Of course, I’ve also complained about Muslims a lot more. In fact, I wanted the U.S. to invade Afghanistan and capture bin Laden before that position was cool. But nevertheless, I may be one of the few who’s sort-of qualified to answer this question.
I complain about Christians in response to a commonly held political stance. Specifically, many folks out there support Dubya despite admitting that most of his actions are indefensible. The argument frequently goes that Bush does generally stink on most social and economic issues, but he’s the only one who can save us from those extreme, violent, “murderous” Muslims. Consequently, the debater concludes, we must continue to support Bush and accept his lousy domestic policy.
I reject this argument for many reasons. Among the biggest reasons is that Bush and his fellow right-wing Christians in America are a bigger threat to my freedoms than any Muslims are. The biggest complaint against the Muslim world right now is that they (prepare to gasp in horror) want to outlaw pictures of the Prophet Mohammed in Denmark. Meanwhile, in the United States, Christians already have:
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Put severe restrictions on access to abortion, thereby denying abortions to thousands of women.
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Continue to seek a total ban on abortions, even for rape victims.
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Restricted access to birth control.
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Sought a Constitutional amendment to outlaw gay marriage, even in states where the voters have clearly supported gay marriage.
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Waged a “war on pornography” that has forced many pornographers out of business.
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Sought to give the FCC total censorship power over cable TV and satellite TV and radio.
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Supported the PATRIOT Act, warrantless wiretapping, and other measures that allow the federal government to snoop on my private business.
Given all these outrages, liberals such as myself find it difficult to understand how many people can claim that they’re defending freedom from future attack by those evil Muslims, but turn a blind eye to the Christian attack on freedom that’s going on as you read these words.
Further, the claim that Muslims are growing “murderous” isn’t as valid as many seem to assume. Consider the recent cartoon dust-up, for instance. During that episode, how many secular people were killed by Muslims? How many Muslims were killed by secular people (or possibly by moderate Muslims as members of secular institutions)? Given the answer to those two questions, is it really valid to complain endlessly about “murderous” Muslims?
If that was what you “meant to say” then that makes your sentance “Are liberals afraid that if they express anger or disgust at Muslim behavior they might somehow be considered expressing support for Bush?” not make any sense. So which is it?
I can express disgust for Muslim behavior plenty. It’s just that a) there aren’t many people around arguing that this behavior is good so it’s not really a very interesting question b) there ARE a lot of people arguing that we should have teacher led prayers in schools, and teach creationism.
Conservatives do this a lot. They assume that because we focus on ACTUAL problems of DIRECT RELEVANCE to our present situations, that we are somehow downplaying or excusing the obviously bad stuff and the distant. Well, guess what. Repeating that blowing up kids is bad over and over to work ourselves into a lathered frenzy is not exactly an interesting exercise. But in the case of something like homosexual rights, its both controversial, and an immediate issue right here at home. That doesn’t mean it’s “as bad” anything. It’s just more immediate, and more worth debating.
The OP is so right.
Why, just the other day a Muslim stamped on my foot.
“Damn Christians,” I responded, angrily.
Well, you know, some Christians have given us liberals an awful lot to complain about. If this were some weird alternate Universe where Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell–both no doubt sporting goatees–were fundamentalist Christians who also (a la William Jennings Bryan) supported the Democratic Party and left-wing or left-populist social and economic policies, and had said anything like the things they’re on record as saying after the September 11 attacks, the Ann Coulters of the world would have branded them as America-hating traitors and likely called for their public execution.
But that said, I want Osama bin Laden and other actual leaders of Al Qaida dead (or at the very least locked up in a concrete cell for the rest of their lives); and not in some vague, “gee, the world would be a better place without them” kind of way, but in a quite concrete “the government of the United States needs to hunt these people down and do them in” sense. Whereas, to be honest about it, what I really feel about Messrs. Falwell and Robertson is largely a somewhat amused contempt, a dollop of glee at how adept they are in shooting themselves in the feet, and a tiny smidgen of fear that if people like them could ever actually exercise real power I’d best make sure my passport is in order or my powder’s dry.
Of course I imagine liberal Christians probably have much stronger feelings about Pat and Jerry than us liberal secular humanists do.
As a liberal, I oppose fundamentalist religion in all its forms. Fundamentalist Christianity and Fundamentalist Islam are both pretty odious, and are both increasingly powerful. F Islam frightens me slightly more than F Christianity, and my suspicion is that Alabama is still a much better place to live than Saudi Arabia, if only 'cause they’ll still let you drink a beer there, but both fundamentalisms are pretty damn odious. For that matter I’m not a big fan of fundamentalist Judaism or Hinduism. Not sure about Buddhism. Is there a fundamentalist Buddhist movement?
The Great Church of Secularism, of course, where we worship our god, Sex.
And let me be the first to apologize for all the Sexarian violence you keep hearing about. Some of the boys gets a little tetchy on a Satday night.
I know there’s a Madonna joke in there somewhere, I just can’t come up with it.
Got a cite? Any examples you can come up with it?
:dubious: