No, wrong, wrong, wrong. By praying in public the non-hypocrites are providing cover for the hypocrites. Jesus says “don’t do it” – how much clearer does it need to be?
No, it isn’t and, no, it isn’t. You are leaning on your own understanding.
What part of “do not pray in public places” don’t you understand? How can that be out of context?
This is from the Sermon on the Mount. You are thinking of some other scripture.
All he did was look up and say thanks. I don’t know if that qualifies as public prayer. I suppose when you are given food looking up and saying thanks is OK.
Where is this verse?
Where in public or in churches is this throne? I would very much like to go see the people praying there.
I think Danimal is right: we should not be focusing on whether or not it’s appropriate for Christians to pray in public, even though there may be some Christians that we’d all dearly love to shut up. The reason for not having state-sponsored Christian prayer at football games or anywhere else is not because it’s un-Christian, but because it’s unconstitutional. Christians have just as much right as anybody else to pray in public without government sponsorship, and we should let them decide among themselves whether or not that’s appropriate Christian behavior. But their decision doesn’t have and shouldn’t have any effect on the constitutionality of state-sponsored prayer.
jmullaney, I will not descent to debate scripture with you this time. Your ultraliteralist interpretation leans on your own understanding; it is borne out by neither tradition nor theology nor scholarship. I am not going down this road again.
I’m sure it must take some people years of study to learn what this means. :rolleyes:
“And when it is said to them, Follow what Allah has revealed, they say: Nay! we follow we shall follow the ways of our fathers. What! and though their fathers had no sense at all, nor did they follow the right way.” – Koran 2:170
jmullaney, hope you don’t mind me posting what my copy of the Koran (well, interpretation of the Koran) has as that verse:
{For some odd reason, this edition includes the “mystical letters” at the beginning of some Suras in the numbering, thus the 171 here.}
My personal favourite verse to quote though, is this one:
{end of the verse only}
I’m betting you missed the “entertainment” of ARG and a couple of others who tried to teach the rest of us the error of our ways.
Ah yes. The full verse (“And they say: Fire shall not touch us but for a few days. Say: Have you received a promise from Allah, then Allah will not fail to perform His promise, or do you speak against Allah what you do not know?”) does kind of settle the question of purgatory.
Someone posted a link to what appears to be an OK Qu’ran. I’ve only seen bit and pieces (usually quoted by Malcolm X, to be honest) before.
I like it so far except the parts that seem to encourage the killing of infidels, although I defer to anyone’s wisdom on what else those verses may mean. But I guess I missed ARG, anyway.
I am rather disappointed that no one bothered to help on the issue of the “Congressional Public Prayer” and the status of the denomination/faith of the Chaplain service 
However, there is still some confusion regarding the “out of context” verse. Please note the following:
There are many instances in the OT of public prayer…this is but one.
Does three denote public? It certainly isn’t private by any means.
Public prayer of the Jewish congregation.
The above are listed to show there is credence in the Bible for group prayer and prayer lead by one in behalf of the group and according to the words of Jesus in Matt 18:19-20 perfectly acceptable to Him.
I submit that the OP refers strictly to individual/personal prayer for oneself. To not make a shameful show of one’s piety for political gain. keep in mind that the Pharisees were the ruling class of that day. LOL, perhaps Jesus gave the first example of true SOCS 
Cheer up – you can start a new thread. The Opening Post is rather confining.
But, of course, these people did not have the full law which came from Jesus did they?
Are you saying God won’t know what these two or three ask for unless they do so outloud?
Are you saying somehow the commanment enjoining secret prayer somehow mandates Christians never gather into groups?
Surely small bands of Christians may share the same desires and have their secret prayers answered by God.
But there is nothing connotating such prayers are outloud.
Nor here. Surely if Jesus had said something, it would have been recorded.
Nor here.
Maybe here. On a lifeboat, in the middle of the sea Paul thanked God they had some food supplies. If that is your justification for breaking one of Jesus’s commandment, it is a rather poor exception to disprove the rule.
There is nothing in those verses regarding un-secret prayer. In fact it implies all the more that a prayer must be secret otherwise you would need only to ask a few others to pray for what you pray and would hence be all powerful. I can provide ample evidence that is not how God works. A prayer seen by men won’t be answered by God.
Don’t pray as those who are not true to themselves.
How is that?
On street corners and meeting houses.
Why not?
God doesn’t answer such prayers.
How instead?
In secret, because God rewards secret prayers.
The commandment is very clear.
{fixed coding. --Gaudere}
[Edited by Gaudere on 01-09-2001 at 09:11 AM]
No one has yet answered my question:
Why do you want to pray publicly? Why do you want to pray over the loudspeaker at a football game? Isn’t your reason for wanting to do so the very thing that Jesus warned against (to be seen by men)?
Thumbs up, jmullaney. You are echoing my thoughts, and I figured you’d take the other side of this interpretation argument.
Let me pose another question for the pro-publicos to possibly flesh out the debate a bit more. Are people praying at football games to be seen by God or other people? I suspect “both” is the answer, but I don’t see how you can pray to be seen by other people without the spectre of “political gain” looming overhead.
Upon review, this is basically a different wording of spoke’s question. So…Why, which is it, and why again?
jmullaney, I agree that the OT represents the old covenent. My cite was listed as a continuing example.
No, no, and conditionally yes. There are dozens of instances where Jesus, Peter, and Paul are noted to have prayed in secret or separated from others. I agree wholeheartedly with you on this from the standpoint of personnal prayer. But I think you are missing the boat entirely when applied to giving thanks or asking blessing on or for a group. Also, it is written many times in Acts that members met together and were of one mind. How can that be said unless their thoughts were vocalized?
I submit:
C’mon jmullaney 
That arguement just won’t fly. I firmly believe that Jesus’ commandment was against prayer in public used as self exhaltation only for the most part, and note as well the prayer of Jesus in the garden was heard and observed by certain disciples otherwise how could it have been recorded. Would Jesus have countermanded His own commandment if it were to be taken in the context you are trying prove? To add what YOU are saying is explict in Jesus’ teaching would be to make other recorded actions by Jesus and the Apostles meaningless and possibly diabolical in that future followers would be led astray by emulation. IMHO, you are adding to the book!
Back to the football game:
The prayers offered at football games are a Southern (read Bible Belt) tradition in some areas that when done properly ask God’s blessings that everyone play to the best of their abilities and for the safety of the players. I submit that there are probably many examples where this was done strictly for the glory of the speaker and I would agree that there would certainly be room for condemnation as well.
“Wall, y’know it’s to keep them heathen non-Christians in their place an’ remind 'em that this here is a Christian nation, with no place for dissenters.”
:rolleyes:
Weren’t they all of the same Spirit? As far as vocalizing thoughts, commonly refered to as speaking, I don’t think such a thing is unheard of and hardly sinful.
Er, who is doing what now?
Good point. Mind you, Jesus says just before this that his “soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death.” Again, like Paul cast adrift on the open sea in a lifeboat, sort of an extraordinary circumstance.
Under such conditions? I wouldn’t blame him.
There is a time and a place. Were I a Christian, I would very very carefully guard myself against such matters lest I would fall into hypocrisy or set a bad example for others. I might add that refusing to participate in public prayers, as a matter of conscience, is perfectly acceptable according to the Sermon on the Mount.
(BTW, Gaudere – thanks for the code fix)
What seems to have been missed by both sides in this argument (I haven’t read the ENTIRE thread yet) is that praying in front of a sporting event is ENTIRELY praying to be seen as whether or not your team wins their High School football game will have little to no bearing upon the rest of your life and you will not end up in abject squalor for your impiety as to whether or not they lose. Praying before a sporting event is doing it for recognition pure and simple. There is absolutely no reason for you not to pray. No one will stop you and no one will think there is anything wrong with you praying. If you are praying to be pious then you can pray regardless of what’s going on. If you want to make a spectacle of it then you are violating Matthew 6:5-7
Erek