G’day
How do proponents of prayer in schools reconcile it with Mathhew 6:6, which forbids praying in public? Or do they not bother to try?
Regards,
Agback
I don’t have the reference for this, and I am paraphrasing it…but “render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s, and to God what is God’s” might be pertinant here.
Off to Great Debates.
DrMatrix - GQ Moderator
In all seriousness, Christians have ignored this for 2000 years. Part of the reason for their success and spread.
Matthew 6:6 does not forbid praying in public – what Jesus was condemning was praying in a manner intended to impress people with how pious you are, and his recommendation was to go in private to pray – God can hear you quite as well there, and He’s supposedly the only person you need to have hear your prayers.
But Jesus Himself prayed a number of times in groups and at least a couple of times in public.
Contemplate the recent Alabama contretemps for a parallel – it’s not that Christians should not pay attention to the Ten Commandments; rather, what God would (and does) forbid is making them a shibboleth for others and setting them up in public so the world can see how religious you are.
The school prayer business is quite simple, really: every kid in school has a First Amendment right to pray – silently at any time, aloud by himself or in groups whenever the school schedule allows for it. But by the First and Fourteenth Amendments, no government body can tell a kid when to pray – and, subject to non-content based restraints, when not to pray. (I.e., it’s perfectly OK to have a rule that says you may not shout out anything (including “Praise Jesus!”) in the middle of a math final; it’s impermissible to say that you can say or shout some thngs and not others at times when kids are permitted to speak or shout.) And a “government body” includes public employees like principals and teachers, and elected officials like school board members. He who has a right to make rules is forbidden by the First and Fourteenth Amendments from making rules about what religion somebody may practice, and how, other than reasonable “time, place, and manner” rules.)
Um … does that mean it’s unconstitutional to forbid schoolkids from cussing?
Can you show convincing evidence that Jesus ever prayed in a situation or setting where unbelievers were present?
Prayer is meant to be a private matter, or at the very most, conducted in a group setting where only assumed believers are present.
I have a real problem with “contemporary” Christian radio, where the announcer “prays” over public radio. Can you, or anyone, show scriptural support for this practice?
Perhaps “Father, forgive them. For they know not what they do” would be a good example.
Good question! Would a member of the bar care to say whether this is covered by “time, place, and manner”?
Ok, good point.
Let’s change my question to add, “except within the last few hours of dying”.
I really am serious. Can you show where prayer in public, with unbelievers present, is a scriptural norm?
How about showing us a passage where it’s forbidden?
Matthew 6:6 says nothing about praying in public. It plainly teaches that one should not pray “like the Pharisees” – that is, praying to be seen and admired for one’s piety.
I should amend that to say that one should not “be like the hypocrites” (rather than the Pharisees), as that’s what the preceding verse says. Context is everything, and the context of Matthew 6:6 shows that it was condemning hypocritical praying as a way to draw attention to oneself.
C’mon JT. I’m asking a reasonable question. Here are some “prayer passages”:
Can you show me where praying in public was the norm, as opposed to the “suggestion” by Jesus that when we pray we should go into a room and close the door?
When I see people praying in restaurants, I cringe…
Just to add on to this, “hypocrite” in Greek meant “stage actor.”
I think that Jesus was addressing grandstanding, over-pious, over-emoting, displays of prayer. Prayer that was performed for an audience and not done as a sincere communication with God.
How about the loaves and fishes episode, where Jesus is quoted as “giving thanks” for the loaves and fishes? That sounds like a prayer of thanksgiving to me:
And he did it in the presence of “the multitude”, which presumably included individuals with a wide range of beliefs.
I don’t think it is a reasonable question, as Matthew 6:6 doesn’t actually forbid praying in public per se. Without any such prohibition, the burden of proof rests on those who claim that public prayer is forbidden.
Moreover, if you want examples, there’s the prophet Elijah, who prayed for God’s favor amidst a large crowd of hostile pagains – 450 prophets of Baal and 400 prophets of Asherah (I Kings 18). And of course, JEsus’ prayer on the cross was already mentioned.
Prayer is nothing more than reverent conversation with God. In the absence of any compelling reason not to pray in public, I daresay that it’s unreasonable to conclude that Jesus was prohibiting all prayer that is merely done in public.
Can you show me where praying in public was the norm, as opposed to the “suggestion” by Jesus that when we pray we should go into a room and close the door?
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Polycarp:
Umm, no.
Lets look at the actual verses in question:
Matthew 6:5-6
And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
In the first verse it seems pretty clear that Jesus is does not want you to pray like the hypocrites, that being in public. In the second verse he quite clearly says to pray in private, and it looks a lot more like a command than a mere “recommendation.” So where you get this “recommendation” part is suspect. Is the “do unto others” verse a mere recommendation also?
Clearly Jesus said to pray in private not in public. And let’s say we were to pretend these orders were ambiguous. Wouldn’t it be prudent to keep the prayers to yourselves just to play it safe?
No help for you there either. Jesus makes the rules, he doesn’t have to follow them. See below for Jesus’ commands vs. actions with regards to calling people fools, establishing the precident of Jesus being above his own law.
Matthew 5: 22
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Matthew 23:15-19
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves. Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor! Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold? And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty. Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?
Luke 24:25
Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken
Please just try reading the bible for a change before posting such rubbish Why not just go as far as reading Mathew 6:5 and you should get the point!
Here you go:
(5) "And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. (6) But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.
Mathew 6:6 means that you should not make yourself out to be a hypocrit by publicly praying for something while privately wishing something else.
SunTzu2U:
That sounds made up. What makes you so sure it means something other than what it says?
Well, as long as we’re lifting individual verses, neglecting the overall context, and treating them as laws handed down by Jesus, here’s one from the same chapter:
Matthew 6:28
“And why worry about clothes? Look how the wild flowers grow: they do not work or make clothes for themselves.”
Jesus is obviously forbidding us from wearing clothes, right? Better take those pants off, or you’re going to hell. 
Must agree with Polycarp, here. Read the entire chapter in context, and you’ll see the overriding theme again and again – do these things (prayer, fasting, helping the needy, worship) in a sincere way, not so that you can impress people with how righteous you are (or think you are).
Matthew 6:2
So when you give something to a needy person, do not make a big show of it, as the hypocrites do in the houses of worship and on the streets. They do it so that people will praise them…
Matthew 6:6 example already cited.
Matthew 6:16
And when you fast, do not put on a sad face as the hypocrites do. They neglect their appearance so that everyone will see that they are fasting…
And before anybody jumps up to accuse me of taking out of context, I’m not – I’m fully aware that after each one of these, Jesus goes on to say “do it in private instead” – help the needy “in such a way that even your closest friend will not know about it”, or “wash your face and comb your hair, so that others cannot know about your fasting”, and so on.
Following the advice of doing these things in private is the best way that a person can insure that he/she is doing these things for the right reasons, and not for self-glorification. It looks to me like Jesus is instructing people on a sure-fire way to accomplish this, not handing down rules and regulations.
It is possible to pray sincerely in a public setting (obviously, Jesus did it in the cited “feeding the 5000” references), but it is much easier to know you’re being sincere (and not looking for self-promotion to others) when it’s in private. I see that as the point of this teaching.
And, as this passage is part of the larger portion known as the “Sermon on the Mount”, it should be noted that this whole section is Jesus teaching (not Jesus making up laws).