Why is MLB attendance so low

[NDP]

@zamboniracer

Some people have been complaining about baseball being on its deathbed for being too boring since I was kid in the 1960s. Reports of its demise are premature at best. A sport that has 73M attend games during a year is doing at least OK.

Attendance only tells part of the picture, however. There are also TV ratings for the sport’s key events (i.e., the All-Star game, the play-offs, and the World Series) which mostly have been in steady decline for the last decade. Some of the post-season games aren’t even on free TV anymore. Also, until fairly recently, when Fox or one of the other free-TV networks aired a World Series game, the competing networks used to concede the evening by throwing a repeat against it. Now, they show new episodes of their programming because they know they can equal or even beat the game in the ratings.

And, in terms of problems, declining TV ratings isn’t even the MLB’s biggest one. That would be demographics. With a few exceptions like Boston and New York, people below the age of 35 mostly don’t care about the sport and that’s something not even the most clever marketing campaign can change. It’s a hip-hop world and baseball is Lawrence Welk. Thus, baseball’s fan base has grown older and whiter and will likely continue to grow older and whiter until their generation passes into history.

[silenus]

@NDP

And, in terms of problems, declining TV ratings isn’t even the MLB’s biggest one. That would be demographics. With a few exceptions like Boston and New York, people below the age of 35 mostly don’t care about the sport and that’s something not even the most clever marketing campaign can change. It’s a hip-hop world and baseball is Lawrence Welk.

Eventually people below the age of 35 grow up and realize that watching 10 gland cases jump in the air every 30 seconds is even stupider than watching 22 steroid monsters crash into each other every 3 1/2 minutes. Then, with the wisdom that age can sometimes bring, they notice that baseball, in its sublime beauty, is still around.

[RickJay]

@Lochdale

Er the OP was asking about Baseball attendance in general. Have a read of it again as you’re getting a little too excited. Unlike how you would likely be attending an actual baseball game.

Lochdale, the OP is referring directly to a link about the Cleveland Indians. Since, as has been fairly clearly demonstrated, Major League Baseball attendance is not on a downward trend, the OP has an incoherent thread title. So we can either discuss the “reasons” for a statement that is false, or discuss what is actually true, which is that Indians attendance is down to an extent that is out of proportion to anyone else in the major leagues.

As to the nonstop “baseball is boring” stuff, again, your opinion’s not relevant to the evidence at hand. We are not talking about why you don’t go to Indians games, or baseball games. We’re talking about why Indians attendance is down (we can’t be talking about MLB attendance being down, because it’s not.) There is no evidence at all that MLB attendance is on a downward swing. It has, for 25 years or so, pretty closely tracked population growth and the strength of the economy, except for the post-1994 backlash.

This sort of thing is repeated ad nauseum for most sports; it’s boring, it’s boring, blah blah blah. At the risk of pointing out something I find amazingly obvious but that some people just don’t seem to understand, the only people who find a sport boring are the ones who don’t know much about it. All sports are pretty dull, really, if you don’t know what you’re watching, because you can’t follow what’s happening. But is it self evidently the case that if more than 70 million people pay to see the sport every year - MLB is, by a very wide margin, the most-attended pro sports league in the history of the world - then the sport has evidently found a very substantial market of people who do not find it boring. Why is that?

Well, let’s see. I personally think watching UFC, that fighting league where guys punch and wrestle in an octagon, is just about the most boring thing I could be asked to watch. But it is self-evidently the case that many, many people find UFC fascinating, because its popularity is exploding. UFC fighters are becoming celebrities, the matches are being covered on mainstream sports channels, and so on. I have similar non-interest in watching golf, the NFL, or college basketball.

So does that mean that UFC, golf, the NFL, and NCAA basketball are objectively boring? Of course not. They’re dull to me because I don’t understand them. I don’t really know enough about those leagues or the current state of the sport or, in the case of golf and UFC, the sport itself to follow what’s going on, understand the dynamics of the match and the participants, anticipate the consequences of what’s happening, and develop a rooting interest. When I watch a UFC match I see two guys grabbing each other. I don’t really know who’s better than who, or why the match is developing the way it is. Where a dedicated UFC fan sees techniques, skills and physical abilities being deployed in a way that creates a highly complex exchange of actions and reactions to determine a competitive outcome, I see “two guys punching.” Of course I find it boring; I don’t get it. The problem is not with UFC, the problem is with ME. I’m like a guy trying to read a book written in a language I don’t understand; no matter how well written the book is, I don’t have the understanding to get anything out of it.

So it is with baseball. It’s sort of a cool, hip thing to say “its boring,” largely because the sport is so popular, so well established, and so common. But the people watching it clearly don’t think it’s boring, and they find it interesting because they understand it, as is the case with pretty much any sport. Those who don’t understand it will, of course, find it dull, since it’s not something they get. And hey, there’s nothing wrong with that. You can’t follow every sport there is; a person only has so much time, after all. But that’s not the same as claiming the sport (any sport) is objectively boring, much less claiming it’s why attendance is dropping when it’s not dropping.

As to whether this will change in the future, as NDP claims, I’ll bet anyone, right now, $1000 it won’t change at all. Might it? Sure, and sports have risen and declined before… but we’ve been hearing the same thing for fifty years. And people still flock to the stadiums, in numbers that vastly exceed the numbers of people who went back when MLB was pretty much the only serious pro team sport in the United States. Of course, if one wants to argue the future of MLB attendance based on current trends, demographics, MLB’s business model, and so on, that at least is a legitimate discussion, one in which NDP has introduced an actual thesis - it’s not an especially sensational one (“It’s a hip-hop world” is an especially funny way of looking at it when the most hip-hop of sports is showing an alarming drop in attendance) but it sure beats “I don’t like it.”

[Elendil_s_Heir]

@NDP

On a related note, how good is the ballpark-formerly-known-as-Jacobs-Field for watching a game? …*s there still the consensus among Cleveland fans that “The Jake” is a good park or have people begun to notice its flaws and complain about them more?

It’s Progressive Field now (some still call it “the Jake,” but I’ve never heard anyone call it “the Prog”), and yeah, I’d say it’s still a good park. No longer new, but well-maintained and a nice place to watch a game. I was there on Wednesday and saw the Tribe beat the A’s, 4-3.

@madmonk28

Yeah, that’s the problem, America has too many Homers who lack the ability to follow the complex narrative of a baseball game, instead we watch football which is a three hour beer commercial with 12 minutes of action; a game so simple, anyone can follow it after 30 seconds of explanation.

George Will once wrote, “Football combines two of the worst parts of American society - violence and committee meetings.”

@NDP

Attendance only tells part of the picture, however. There are also TV ratings for the sport’s key events (i.e., the All-Star game, the play-offs, and the World Series) which mostly have been in steady decline for the last decade…

And, in terms of problems, declining TV ratings isn’t even the MLB’s biggest one. That would be demographics. With a few exceptions like Boston and New York, people below the age of 35 mostly don’t care about the sport and that’s something not even the most clever marketing campaign can change…

A very interesting recent Cleveland Scene article along those lines: http://www.citypages.com/2013-03-27/news/major-league-baseball-s-screwball-economics/

[BlinkingDuck]

Baseball boring?

I am not a baseball fan but when I do get dragged to it it does seem to drip with strategy. I think American football does as well but in football it all happens ‘at once’ while in baseball it is more drawn out.

So, while I prefer football, I can definitely see how people are attracted to baseball.

As for the OP, I think baseball has been pricing itself out of the middle class. Cities with more ‘middle class’ will get hit first. Cities with more well paid people will do better. Cleveland is very middle class, has a poor history of doing well/in a slump etc etc…Clevelend is just ‘ahead of the curve’

[Justin_Bailey]

@NDP

And, in terms of problems, declining TV ratings isn’t even the MLB’s biggest one. That would be demographics. With a few exceptions like Boston and New York, people below the age of 35 mostly don’t care about the sport and that’s something not even the most clever marketing campaign can change. It’s a hip-hop world and baseball is Lawrence Welk. Thus, baseball’s fan base has grown older and whiter and will likely continue to grow older and whiter until their generation passes into history.

400,000 kids play in Little League-affiliated leagues every Summer. As for the “whiter” comment, have you looked at the roster of a Major League team in the last 30 years?

[Elendil_s_Heir]

There’s the players on the field, and then there’s the fan base. Not at all synonymous.

[zamboniracer]

@Elendil_s_Heir

A very interesting recent Cleveland Scene article along those lines: http://www.citypages.com/2013-03-27/news/major-league-baseball-s-screwball-economics/

That is an interesting article. Thanks for the link!

IMHO, the decline in baseball’s national network ratings for the World Series et al is simply a function of the networks’ own falling ratings as their audience continues to fragment to cable and computer. The interest in baseball seems fine, as it continues to appeal to national news interest. Baseball is televised locally, so that each team has its own local and/cable and radio following. When these stop existing, then baseball will have a grave problem. As long as they’re still up and running, baseball is ok.

[NDP]

@silenus

Eventually people below the age of 35 grow up and realize that watching 10 gland cases jump in the air every 30 seconds is even stupider than watching 22 steroid monsters crash into each other every 3 1/2 minutes. Then, with the wisdom that age can sometimes bring, they notice that baseball, in its sublime beauty, is still around.

That argument, unfortunately, only perpetuates the increasingly prevelant stereotype that only old white men like baseball. Once something gets the repuation for only being liked by old people, that’s the kiss of death. Also, I have disagree with the main point of your post since I think your interest in a particular sport generally starts when you’re young. For the most part, people suddenly don’t get interested in a sport they ignored for the first 40 to 45 years of their lives.

[QUOTE=Justin_Bailey]
400,000 kids play in Little League-affiliated leagues every Summer. As for the “whiter” comment, have you looked at the roster of a Major League team in the last 30 years?
[/QUOTE]

As** Elendil’s Heir** said, I was referring to MLB’s fan base and not the players.

Regarding Little League, it is true that kids still play but their participation numbers over the last few decades are down or at least static. Kids are just as likely or more than likely to play soccer rather than baseball.

[QUOTE=RickJay]
As to whether this will change in the future, as NDP claims, I’ll bet anyone, right now, $1000 it won’t change at all. Might it? Sure, and sports have risen and declined before… but we’ve been hearing the same thing for fifty years. And people still flock to the stadiums, in numbers that vastly exceed the numbers of people who went back when MLB was pretty much the only serious pro team sport in the United States. Of course, if one wants to argue the future of MLB attendance based on current trends, demographics, MLB’s business model, and so on, that at least is a legitimate discussion, one in which NDP has introduced an actual thesis - it’s not an especially sensational one (“It’s a hip-hop world” is an especially funny way of looking at it when the most hip-hop of sports is showing an alarming drop in attendance) but it sure beats “I don’t like it.”
[/QUOTE]

Are you referring to the NBA? If so, I would again argue that attendance is only a small part of the picture. Unlike MLB, nobody can say that interest and TV ratings for the NBA play-offs is in steady decline or that long-term prognosis for the sport is terminal (and I say that as a baseball fan).

[Jas09]

People have been predicting the demise of baseball for 100 years, for many of the same reasons. It’s not going anywhere.

In fact, record TV deals are being signed in nearly every major market. TV ratings aren’t deterring anybody.

[bump]

My earlier rant aside, I have a theory about why baseball may be losing popularity.

A lot of the people I know who are big baseball fans played baseball as children- both organized leagues like Little League, and unorganized “sandlot” type games.

Now that parents don’t let their kids roam free and organize ad-hoc baseball games, maybe that has something to do with the popularity of the sport? Baseball strikes me as something that would be extremely hard to get into unless you’d played it as a kid in some fashion, while sports like football and basketball are easier to watch even if you haven’t played before.

Another thing to consider is that a “bad” game is frequently one of the most entertaining to watch to the untrained eye. A game with sloppy pitching and fielding will often be exciting due to a lot of hitting, base running and defensive plays.

A "good’ game by comparison, between 2 high-caliber pitchers will have very few on-base hits, and may have a lot of strikeouts, fly balls and ground outs, none of which are exciting in the least.

[RickJay]

@NDP

Are you referring to the NBA? If so, I would again argue that attendance is only a small part of the picture. Unlike MLB, nobody can say that interest and TV ratings for the NBA play-offs is in steady decline or that long-term prognosis for the sport is terminal (and I say that as a baseball fan).

You keep saying the sport’s long term prognosis is terminal, but you’re not explaining why that is; it’s simply “only old white people like it” over and over. (I guess Hispanics don’t like baseball?)

I’m also not sure how the “hip-hop world” is evident in NBA ratings. The NBA Finals ratings these days aren’t bad, but they’re not nearly as good as they were in the 80s (and before anyone says Michael Jordan, the NBA was drawing very good ratings for Finals games before Jordan.) the 1982 Finals, in which LA beat Philadelphia, earned a 13.0; that’s before Michael Jordan was even drafted. But it’s been fifteen years since the NBA had a 13.0 average for a Finals.

[QUOTE=bump]
Another thing to consider is that a “bad” game is frequently one of the most entertaining to watch to the untrained eye. A game with sloppy pitching and fielding will often be exciting due to a lot of hitting, base running and defensive plays.

A "good’ game by comparison, between 2 high-caliber pitchers will have very few on-base hits, and may have a lot of strikeouts, fly balls and ground outs, none of which are exciting in the least.
[/QUOTE]

There actually is some evidence to suggest that scoring is positively correlated to interest in baseball. People like to see hits and home runs.

However, scoring in baseball is presently at fairly normal levels, historically speaking, which goes to explain why attendance remains high. If it were to drop to really low levels, as it did in 1968, or become very dull and unimaginative, as it was in the 1940s and 1950s, you might see an impact on attendance.

[Mister_Rik]

I’ve attended Seattle Mariners games at both the old Kingdome and at Safeco Field. But I don’t live in Seattle - I live in a rural farming community in eastern Washington. I would really love to go see more games at Safeco - it’s a beautiful ballpark and I love watching games in person. But I think the air in Seattle disagrees with me, because I’m not used to it. Every time I’ve attended a game at Safeco, I’ve ended up with a splitting headache and just generally not feeling well, a problem I didn’t have in the Kingdome. It didn’t help that, at the last game I attended, my seat was a level above the bratwurst vendor’s stall and I spent the entire game breathing the greasy smoke coming off the grill. It didn’t even smell like brats cooking, just greasy smoke.

So I’m pretty content to listen to the games on the radio (I don’t own a TV, and listening to the radio makes it easier to do other things while I listen.

[NDP]

@Mister_Rik

I’ve attended Seattle Mariners games at both the old Kingdome and at Safeco Field. But I don’t live in Seattle - I live in a rural farming community in eastern Washington. I would really love to go see more games at Safeco - it’s a beautiful ballpark and I love watching games in person. But I think the air in Seattle disagrees with me, because I’m not used to it. Every time I’ve attended a game at Safeco, I’ve ended up with a splitting headache and just generally not feeling well, a problem I didn’t have in the Kingdome.

The last time I took in a game at Safeco and went with my parents and my brother and they also had problems. The game was on a Sunday afternoon in early June which was, as is often the case for Seattle, interrupted by periodic rainstorms (they ended up delaying the game to close the roof). However, the storms were accompanied by winds that, due to the configuration of the stadium, blew stronger and colder. As a result, my parents were thoroughly chilled throughout much of the game.

[ZipperJJ]

I went to the traditional double header in Cleveland today and there were 23,299 in attendance. I do believe that is the second highest this year after opening day (or close to it).

They had another weekday game this year. I think it drew around 18-20k. It was better than the weekend afternoon game I’d been to.

New theory: most Indians fans work second shift. 7:05 starts are right out, but noon works well!

[denquixote]

@RickJay

By what standard is this true?

By the standard of filling up the stadium. They have drawn in excess of 99 per cent of capacity so far. St. Louis is second at 92.4 per cent. The attendance leader, number wise, Los Angeles, is drawing only 76%.

[denquixote]

changed mind

[harmonicamoon]

Anytime I am in a city that has a MLB team, I will go to a game. I prefer day games. Sure, it is a $200 expense for two, but for me it is a rare treat. It is a beautiful event to share with my daughter. I love baseball!

[etv78]

Rick-I’m almost certain the '82 Finals were on tape delay. (The NBA was a mess in the late 70s-early 80s).

[R.P.McMurphy]

@etv78

Rick-I’m almost certain the '82 Finals were on tape delay. (The NBA was a mess in the late 70s-early 80s).

The 1980 Finals were on tape delay. Magic was a rookie.

Magic and Bird were responsible for reviving the NBA. I believe that 1981 and later the games were broadcast live. The Lakers/Celtics rivalry was what the NBA became all about. Jordan followed the revival and notched interest up.

BTW, the 1979 NCAA championship game got the highest ratings of all time for a basketball game. That’s how important Magic and Bird were to the sport.