Not just that, why is meh-hee-co Mexico? Why the fuck didn’t english map makers of old just spell the places like they were pronounced? Did they think all of the poor saps in Munchen were pronouncing the name of their city wrong? There are so many cities around the world that could be easily spelled out phonetically in English, but instead some bastard chose to slaughter the pronunciation and spread that disinformation to the unknowing masses.
Er, it’s not a decision the map makers made. The map makers put on their maps what their countrymen were already using as names.
Why do people sometimes have names for foreign countries which are different from what those foreign countries call themselves? Well, for the same reasons people have different languages to begin with. Language is weird, it’s all caught up in the contingencies of history, and it has no particular tendency to standardize across long distances. We keep right on calling Germany “Germany” rather than “Deutschland” and calling India “India” rather than “Bharat”, because that’s what we’re used to calling them and we have no particular impetus to change towards their native names. And what’s wrong with that? Our linguistic traditions needn’t be the same as theirs, even as regards their names.
You literally don’t understand the concept of foreign languages?
You’re a fine one to talk, Mr Yacht!
Some rationales are given here.
That has as much to do with the fact that Germany is an extremely young country in the grand scope of things, than anything else. That, and the disparate fiefdoms and principalities and tribes that were all present before Germany came into being.
I always thought that was a neat read!
Yeah; I’m just saying, no one feels an urge to switch the name to match the endonym more closely. The same phenomenon presents itself with divergent but cognate names as well (as in the OP’s examples); once the details of the renderings began to drift apart in distant speech communities, there was no strong force to cause them to converge again, so off they went on their differing evolutionary paths.
The phenomenon hardly being limited to geographic names, of course. We say “French” instead of “Français” for the name of the language and so on.
There are some examples where we see P.C. name changes. Madras and Bombay come to mind.
True. Also, Calcutta. It does sometimes happen (although I’m not sure to what extent those “official” name changes have penetrated general public consciousness among those not particularly acquainted with India). But in those particular cases, it was specifically as a result of a concerted push by the local governments to have English speakers make those name changes. This, of course, has not been pushed for by either Mexico or Munich.
The citizens of München should perhaps be flattered that we give the city an Anglicised name, because as x-ray vision’s link says that tends to happen for places that have had some long-standing significance to us. Augsburg, just down the road, is still Augsburg to those few Brits who’ve heard of it.
Also, some foreign names obviously include sounds that can be difficult for English speakers. In the case of “München” there’s a ʏ and a ç, although “Munshen” or “Munchen” (first vowel same as that in “book”) are probably close enough.
Exactly what I was looking for. Thanks.
You don’t seem to understand the question. I was asking why we don’t use the foreign pronunciations.
Because you speak English, which to a German would be known as a “foreign language”. In English we call it Munich. We could call it Hamburg if we want, what’s it to them? That’s what happens with a “foreign language” - there are different words for the same shit. So that’s why it’s Munich not Munchen, because it’s English, not German, they are different languages.
An interesting thought experiment.
An island in the Pacific decides that it has nothing in common with the other islands and peoples there and wants to go independent. The mother country agrees.
They have their own language and use the Roman alphabet but has one pronunciation twists. In their language a “D” is represents what we in the US would use “TH”. All else is the same. The name of this new nation in their spelling is ODIRINA. This is a new name just made up and voted on by their people. There is no history to this name.
To our ears it is clearly pronounced “OTHIRINA”.
What do the cartographers do in English speaking countries?
By all rights, we should call and spell the name of this new nation OTHIRINA. There’s no justifiable reason to introduce the pronunciation ODIRINA, just because it looks like that to us. In other words, the pronunciation ought to outweigh the apparent spelling. The pronunciation they use is not foreign to English. The phonemes are identical.
What do you think would actually happen
That city we call Munich is in Bavaria. In Bavarian (yes, it’s a language) the city is called Minga, so those poor saps in Munich who call it München are still pronouncing it wrong. Why did those stupid Germans chose to slaughter the pronunciation and spread that disinformation to the unknowing masses?
Well they don’t spell it as it’s pronounced today (in modern Spanish) in Mexico either. The “x” represents the spelling in medieval Spanish for a sound that later changed somewhat and became represented by “j”. (Actually, the situation is a bit more complex than that; I’m simplifying a bit here.) So the alternative spelling of Mejico also exists in Spanish (although according to the Real Academia Espanola, “Mexico” is preferred).
In English, the name is pronounced according to the way it is traditionally spelled in Spanish, but according to English rules of pronunciation. This does not correspond to either the traditional or present pronunciation in Spanish.
I’m not sure anybody says “Deutschland” except the Germanic language countries. The French call it “Allemagne”, or sometimes just “those fuckers” for short. When I lived in Europe, it was a challenge to fly anywhere at first, as I didn’t know the German names for many of the cities, such as Wien (Vienna), Praha (Prague), Munchen, etc. The first time I looked at the flight schedule board in Frankfurt to see if my plane was departing on schedule for Vienna, I had a mild panic attack.
I think it would be the same as the OP’s example of Mexico - we would spell it their way and pronounce it our way. It’s not difficult for an English speaker to approximate the way “Mexico” is pronounced in Spanish, but nevertheless we don’t do it.
This thread reminded me of Chaplin’s movie the “The Great Dictator.” Austria in German is Österreich. In Chaplin’s film, he refers to the country as Ostrich. He also refers to Vienna as Vanilla (which is inconsistent because he is spoofing the English name). So in the film’s dialogue, there are a few quick references to Vanilla, Ostrich which are kind of funny if you notice them.
Sorry,after doing some Googling, I think Chaplin referred to Austria as Osterlich not Ostrich. (Although I did get a few hits on Ostrich.)