I basically agree. It might be better to simply stick with ‘free speech’ rather than run up the blind alley of legalistic responses you get invoking ‘the first amendment’ (I don’t recall if you did or somebody else inferred it). The amendment is part of a necessary subset of measures in a free society, but it’s still not really a free society if private entities constantly attempt to squelch free expression just because the govt itself does not. Nor should we have to rely on the govt becoming so big and universally intrusive that everything can be called part of it and restricted by the amendment.
For example, the behavior of various universities now wrt free speech is a problem IMO, and it would be a problem whether they relied on govt funding or contracts to some degree or not. A govt contract for some research in some graduate lab is not what makes overbearing PC censorship and indoctrination over in the freshman classrooms a problem.
You’re free to call people Orientals all you want. The secret police aren’t going to stop you. Can’t guarantee what people’s reactions will be, but can’t guarantee that about anything.
If you’re implying that the word shouldn’t be offensive because it’s etymology is benign, as I’ve explained in this thread a couple of times (and past threads before this), etymology has got almost nothing to do with whether a term is offensive.
That’s not how it works. It’s more about culture and history, and how someone living in the US today would know that calling someone Oriental would offend them.
I didn’t compare them. I was giving an example to illustrate that etymology is irrelevant.
Frankly, I don’t know how offensive the term “oriental” is in the US.
I never heard it used as an insult in the time I’ve been in the US, or in TV or movie dramas.
But I have heard through threads like this, and satirical shows, that it’s an offensive term, so that’s enough reason for me to avoid using it.
I don’t need to hear any reason why it’s offensive.
“Paki” would be comparable to “Jap,” no? Shortening of the word “Japanese,” used frequently in the Allied countries during the war years as a synonym for “subhuman yellow-skinned monster” ?
‘Jap’ is IME absolutely a slur to the ears of Americans of Japanese descent, and informed English speaking Japanese in the US know it as a slur also (both of those from knowing many people in both categories). But I’ve often heard it claimed by (albeit ‘white’, or AFAIK over the internet) Brits and Aussies that it isn’t in their countries, as much.
OTOH very few people emigrated from Japan to either of those countries, they might have to Australia but were basically excluded under recent decades. OTOH in the US discrimination against Japanese did not start with WWII but goes back to the wave of Japanese immigration to the US in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. In fact the treatment of Japanese in the US was an aggravating factor in the two countries’ deteriorating relationship leading to the Pacific War, though not by any means the primary issue between them.
So like ‘Paki’ it’s very possible a term has more baggage in one country than another, even that speaks the same language.
Again though, my issue with terms like ‘Oriental’ is how they get converted into ‘offensive’, not just unfashionable or outdated. ‘Jap’ was absolutely and widely used as a slur at least in some contexts and not only WWII. It seems harder for people who want morally impugn those who use old polite terms like Oriental, or negro, to show evidence of that to justify the abuse that’s often heaped on current day users.
This reminds me of the newspaper I used to work for. The atrium of the building had many artifacts from the previous 90 years or however long they’d been around, and on one wall was a greatly enlarged reproduction bearing the headline “Japs Attack!!!” I always wondered how many people complained about it. I also wondered why it was okay to plaster the word “JAPS” 2 feet tall on the wall but the editors couldn’t bring themselves to print the word “nigger” when it was integral to the story, such as part of a direct quote.
FWIW I have no problem with either one (in this context).
Ask someone who’s offended by it.
I don’t personally give a shit if it’s a random word picked out of the dictionary. If group X say it’s offensive, that’s enough for me.
All I was saying is that usually it’s for historical / cultural reasons. In the case of Oriental, of course I don’t know; and I already alluded to that.
A similar exchange to this has now been had a few times on this thread and I guess many times on similar threads. Seems to me your side of it is reasonable in what you are saying, but it’s still kind of missing the point of the question.
I question in general the validity of people simply deciding once polite words are ‘offensive’ without any particular reason. They should provide a reason. ‘I just feel that way’ is a good enough reason not to use a word, not IMO a good enough reason to impugn the motives and morality of people who do use it, which is very common in a whole slew of such ‘outdated’ words related to various hot button issues, this is not an isolated case.
So IMO it’s very relevant if someone can or can’t come up with an actual reason the word is ‘offensive’, not just ‘well other people think so’, and not ‘I don’t use it’, which with due respect is entirely irrelevant. I don’t use the word ‘Oriental’ either. It would cause trouble I don’t want to be bothered with, besides which it’s at least a syllable longer than ‘Asian’ (two since I pronounce it ‘Ay xin’). I don’t violate PC speech code generally, AFAIK, though it’s easy to fall behind here and there. I still think impugning people’s motives and morality for using arbitrarily ‘forbidden’ words is a problem though. Even on this thread at least one poster was revving up the argument why ‘Asian’ should be next on the forbidden list.
But maybe somebody can still give a good explanation why ‘Oriental’ is offensive besides something that amounts to ‘it just is’.
I agree with you, Corry El; and I think there is an ulterior motive: Control.
That the secret PC police, whose membership may include everyone left of center, are dedicated to controlling everyone’s spoken and written language, by hook or by crook. I don’t use racial or ethnic epithets; and I resent schools of thought that aim to pervert hitherto innocuous words into slurs in the name of cultural respect or some other vague objective.
Oh, this is rich. From the person claiming that words mean exactly what you claim they mean, actual laws of how language works be damned. No, just because some ignorant white dude wants to pretend that ‘oriental’ doesn’t have connotations of yellow peril, opium den racism, those connotations don’t cease to exist.
