Why is prostitution so wrong?

This made me rethink my position on legalization. I live in Philadelphia. Besides the various government lotteries, and race tracks, legal casinos are only an hour’s drive away in Atlantic City. Still, the police made numerous arrests for illegal gambling last year.

I've read the quotes from prostitutes who love their work. Anecdotal evidence has never been very convincing. On the various occasions I've lived in mental health wards, I've met plenty of prostitutes. None were happy making money that way. The most memorable was a girl who lived on the street and sold her body after fleeing a family in which all the male relatives gang raped her at picnics and reunions.

   On a slight hijack, the same photos and the same ads have been printed in the Philadelphia Weekly, one of the city's free papers, for the past month. Why haven't these escorts been arrested? Since all the posts seem to agree that current laws and strategies to eliminate prostitution aren't working why doesn't law enforcement develop new ones?

The posts here debating the issues of prostitution seem to imply that the industry is strictly female sex workers (who are typically “lured” into the industry). By reading the classified ads of most larger city weekly papers, one will notice the abundance of male sex worker ads. Also, driving through certain streets in most large cities one can observe male “hustlers” working the streets. Clearly, males have almost as visible a presence as the females… at least in medium-large cities.

The internet has reportedly moved much of the prostitution business (female and male) from the streets under the guise of “escorts”. This was recently featured on Dateline.

Debating the issues surrounding prostitution needs to take into account the fact that prostitution is simply not just a female streetwalker waiting for the male john looking for a good time.

Personally, I think it should be regulated and taxed.

Hi** Intrinsic**. Actually, what most of us have been debating here (seems to me) has been the greater issue of prostitution, in generalized terms. Yes, much of the focus has been on streetwalkers, but some data on other forms have been submitted as well.

If you have data to support your additional folks, by all means bring it on.

Precisely. If prostitution contributes at all, it does so only peripherally. The biggest contributor to these attitudes is the media. As a means of changing this, would you advocate censoring the media? I’m going to assume that you certainly would not.

In a free society, people can choose to be stupid. We have a free society. Men can choose to see women however they want. They can ignore all the real women they actually know, starting with their mothers, grandmothers and sisters, and base their beliefs and understanding of women on media images and strippers. This is stupid. They are free to be stupid. It is not our job to control the images they see to try and stop them from being stupid.

In what way? Whistling at a woman? What is so dreadful about this? Does your sister feel threatened by this? Why is it so disturbing to her? What is so wrong with being admired? Could it be that your sister is guilty of something even worse than those un-empathetic males: due to media imagry, and ignoring all she knows about the real men in her real life, she is seeing all unknown men as potential threats to her health and life? Don’t you think it is at least as bad to demonize men for being men because of media and SOME men’s choices as it is to sexualize all women for the same?

The genders have a lot of work to do. De-sexing ourselves isn’t it.

[sub] I flatly reject the idea that any woman’s life is “undermined” by any other woman’s choice to present herself as a sexual object. As I had occasion to mention in another thread recently, I am fed up with the infantilization of women which turns all sexual interaction that hasn’t been requested by written invitation into an assault. Feminism is about empowering women, not treating them like blown glass. It does not empower ME to emasculate HIM, and expecting men to shut down the most powerful feelings they have and respond to all women as though they were their maiden aunt is not only unreasonable, it is undesirable. For a wide array of reasons, but the one that may interest you is this: you will never get all men to behave like that. Therefore, women need to learn to deal with piggy men without falling apart over it. THAT empowers us. Having unreasonable expectations that will never be met does not. Our ideal world is great, but fantasizing about it doesn’t help us deal with this one.

Actually, you have not seen me argue these things. When I complain about media images, I have complained about the way they set women up to try and live up to an unreasonable standard, not that they warp the male mind. As for the contraception arguments…nope, wasn’t me. At least it sure doesn’t sound like me. I don’t even have an opinion about abortion pills and women in subservient positions. Never thought about it.
As for seeing women as a “cunt first” as you so delightfully put it, I did not say I did not see the harm. Only that I don’t think the harm is vitiated by controlling media images or keeping prostitution illegal. Education. Education. Education.

Done.

What about ‘em? I think they’re stupid. I think they are thought control and I would never speak for them. I understand why people like them, but they are fundamentally bad law for America, which is piling bad law on bad law these days in a foolish reaction to media presentations of crime… but I digress….

Sexual discrimination laws may have ancillary benefits to societal attitudes, but that’s just a bonus. There is very real harm done to women. Real sexual harassment is a form of sexual assault, and must be stopped. (I say “real” as opposed to the idiocy that SH laws have been used against: discussing Seinfeld episodes at work, women “forced to cope” with Playboy calendars on the wall, having a co-worker tell a woman she looks hot today, Being asked out on a date by someone in a higher position in the company, and even some worse things. I’m pretty strict about what I consider real sexual harassment, because I think it devalues and demeans real victims to turn all forms of sexual interaction at work into harassment issues, and it pisses me off. Clarence Thomas discussing pubic haris on Coke cans is Clarence Thomas being a moron with a really juvenile sense of humor, not sexually harassing anyone.)

I can support keeping prostitution off the street and behind closed doors, that’s fine. But behind those doors, well, ain’t nobody’s bidness, ya know?

I’d like to reiterate my position here: the average woman is neither Miss Pittypat or a G-String Diva, and the average man is ** not ** a slobbering rapist, and and any policy which assumes that we are either one disempowers us all.

Yooooo hoooo… I’m sorry, I just gotta bust you on this one. You believe what you WANT to believe, and you make it abundantly clear in this ridiculously contradictory 3 sentences, which, restated, are this:

“I’ve read about women who are, as far as I know, healthy, normal women who work as prostitutes, who self-report their personal experience and say that they enjoy their work, which I don’t want to believe is true.”

“Evidence that amounts to nothing more than self-reports of personal experiences or observations is never very convincing.”

“I’ve lived in mental institutions and met (presumably) mentally ill women who self-report their personal experiences as prostitutes and say they were unhappy with it, and that supports what I want to believe, so I’ll believe that that is the norm for all or most prostitutes.”

C’mon, it’s obvious you don’t have a problem with anecdotal evidence at all, only anecdotal evidence that doesn’t support your personal belief.

Besides which, virtually ALL evidence of a subjective thing like happiness is, by it’s nature, anecdotal. It only becomes “data” when you record reams of it. And even then, it’s just reams of anecdotal evidence.

Mea CULPA! I’m so sorry… here is the same post again, without the eyestrain:

Precisely. If prostitution contributes at all, it does so only peripherally. The biggest contributor to these attitudes is the media. As a means of changing this, would you advocate censoring the media? I’m going to assume that you certainly would not.

In a free society, people can choose to be stupid. We have a free society. Men can choose to see women however they want. They can ignore all the real women they actually know, starting with their mothers, grandmothers and sisters, and base their beliefs and understanding of women on media images and strippers. This is stupid. They are free to be stupid. It is not our job to control the images they see to try and stop them from being stupid.

In what way? Whistling at a woman? What is so dreadful about this? Does your sister feel threatened by this? Why is it so disturbing to her? What is so wrong with being admired? Could it be that your sister is guilty of something even worse than those un-empathetic males: due to media imagry, and ignoring all she knows about the real men in her real life, she is seeing all unknown men as potential threats to her health and life? Don’t you think it is at least as bad to demonize men for being men because of media and SOME men’s choices as it is to sexualize all women for the same?

The genders have a lot of work to do. De-sexing ourselves isn’t it.

I flatly reject the idea that any woman’s life is “undermined” by any other woman’s choice to present herself as a sexual object. As I had occasion to mention in another thread recently, I am fed up with the infantilization of women which turns all sexual interaction that hasn’t been requested by written invitation into an assault. Feminism is about empowering women, not treating them like blown glass. It does not empower ME to emasculate HIM, and expecting men to shut down the most powerful feelings they have and respond to all women as though they were their maiden aunt is not only unreasonable, it is undesirable. For a wide array of reasons, but the one that may interest you is this: you will never get all men to behave like that. Therefore, women need to learn to deal with piggy men without falling apart over it. THAT empowers us. Having unreasonable expectations that will never be met does not. Our ideal world is great, but fantasizing about it doesn’t help us deal with this one.

Actually, you have not seen me argue these things. When I complain about media images, I have complained about the way they set women up to try and live up to an unreasonable standard, not that they warp the male mind. As for the contraception arguments…nope, wasn’t me. At least it sure doesn’t sound like me. I don’t even have an opinion about abortion pills and women in subservient positions. Never thought about it.
As for seeing women as a “cunt first” as you so delightfully put it, I did not say I did not see the harm. Only that I don’t think the harm is vitiated by controlling media images or keeping prostitution illegal. Education. Education. Education.

Done.

What about ‘em? I think they’re stupid. I think they are thought control and I would never speak for them. I understand why people like them, but they are fundamentally bad law for America, which is piling bad law on bad law these days in a foolish reaction to media presentations of crime… but I digress….

Sexual discrimination laws may have ancillary benefits to societal attitudes, but that’s just a bonus. There is very real harm done to women. Real sexual harassment is a form of sexual assault, and must be stopped. (I say “real” as opposed to the idiocy that SH laws have been used against: discussing Seinfeld episodes at work, women “forced to cope” with Playboy calendars on the wall, having a co-worker tell a woman she looks hot today, Being asked out on a date by someone in a higher position in the company, and even some worse things. I’m pretty strict about what I consider real sexual harassment, because I think it devalues and demeans real victims to turn all forms of sexual interaction at work into harassment issues, and it pisses me off. Clarence Thomas discussing pubic haris on Coke cans is Clarence Thomas being a moron with a really juvenile sense of humor, not sexually harassing anyone.)

I can support keeping prostitution off the street and behind closed doors, that’s fine. But behind those doors, well, ain’t nobody’s bidness, ya know?

I’d like to reiterate my position here: the average woman is neither Miss Pittypat or a G-String Diva, and the average man is ** not ** a slobbering rapist, and and any policy which assumes that we are either one disempowers us all.

Stoid what about the link I provided that recommended women avoid the Amsterdam district if traveling by themselves? The district involved was ‘behind closed doors’ and yet women who had not chosen the profession were advised to avoid being alone near there? Seems like the admonition to ‘get it off the street behind closed doors and all will be fine’ doesn’t seem to work in the real world.

(yes, we understand that’s a recommondation due to oppressive yadayadayada and is made all over the place, however, it remains that it was specifically issued for that district- implying issues for lone women near there).

You keep on assuming that society has problematic attitudes towards women (due to advertising and the media), and pruitanical attitudes towards sex, and if we could simply wave a magic wand and change all of that, we’d have a lovely world where sex workers could proudly ply their trade because all of the negatives about them would be gone.

Yes, there are unreasonable attitudes towards women in the media. However, the negative attitude towards sex workers as a trade predates modern advertising (as well as the rail thin current model of beauty) As a matter of fact, if we look a Biblical stories (for archival interests, not for spiritual reasons), we see that even waaaaay back before the Victorian era where sex talk was not approved of, prostitutes were not held in high esteem.

So, how 'bout you track back in time and see if sex workers were ever held in high esteem? Can’t find any? then I’d suggest that you drop the pretense that the negative view towards sex workers is due to that nasty media and ‘current thinking’. If it’s always been true (or nearly always), we should start thinking that it isn’t a transient thought, eh?

Interesting, isn’t it that you don’t find Doc’s anectdotal info nearly as profound as your own. the point, I think he was trying to make is that he had anectdotal info, too. As did I in the other thread. Shrug.

While some people’s negative attitudes re: sex workers may be linked to personal religious or moral decisions, this doesn’t make it the only reason for negative attitudes.

We’ve established (through links) that there are negative consequences to the sex worker’s trade by itself. Persons who weren’t workers were cautioned to restrict their movements through the areas. It failed completely to eliminate the illegal, unregulated trade. There’s anectdotal info on both sides re: attitudes of the sex workers themselves, so even if we believe (and I don’t) that the folks you think of represent half of the population of sex workers, anectdotal on both sides =a wash. Some one else linked to evidence that the government decided to cash in on the trade, but by the same token we’ve shown that there are still major problems associated with it and the situational solution in Nevada (putting the ‘ranches’ way out into the boondocks) is simply not a viable one for most communities (certainly not the big cities).

So, still seems to me that your end comes up short, not just by empiracle evidence, but by lack of reasoned response to challenge. You keep on repeating (in essence) that ‘if everybody’s attitude changed, then it would all be different’. gee whiz, if everything was different, then things wouldn’t be the same - who’d have thunk?

HOwever, you’ve got the wrong order. In order for people’s attitudes about sex workers to change, the negative other aspects would have to change first. Why should I welcome and embrace a business into my area that, in the past, has caused huge problems? The ancillary problems are not necessarily all due to the illegal nature of the business.

So are these ancillary problems or the very reason why prostitution is illegal?

There are many dangerous, unpleasant and undesirable professions that have negative effects on neighborhoods. This does not mean these professions should be illegal.

There was a chocolate factory about 1/2 a mile from my home. It stank to high heaven. It attracted rats the size of small dogs. I’m sure the smoke that poured from the stacks was not the most healthful to the neighborhood.

The factory workers toiled under stinking conditions for 10 hour shifts. Many where paid minimum. Yet no one ever thought of making the chocolate factory illegal.

Cohersion is illegal, whether you are being forced into a shirt factory or a brothel. Loitering is illegal in my neighborhood whether you are streetwalking or hanging out with your buddies. Having sex in public is illegal whether you are getting paid for it or not. None of these issues have any direct meaning on why prostitution is illegal.

It is moral outrage that keeps prostitution illegal. All the other reasons are quite ancillary.

with all due respect Biggirl that argument’s been answered already.

Yes, of course, many industries and businesses have problems associated with them. Smells, sounds in particular. However, any you know cause a government to issue warnings to women traveling alone to avoid the area, as in Amsterdam?

And yes, many legal things beget illegal activities (cigarette bootlegging for example). Again, not many folks are being kidnapped in order to work the bootleg trade, but they are for sex trade .

Of course, this sort of coercion is wrong. But did you read the links to the data from the Netherlands, where prostitution is legal, and the problems they’re having with women being kidnapped and brought there by force or trickery? And you think this would change??? Another facet of the Netherlands info is the fact that most of the legal sex workers are immigrants. Now, why do you suppose that is???

It’s up to you to demonstrate a rational reason why legalization would do away with the problems currently associated with prostitution. You believe that it’s moral outrage? Tell that to the people who’s homes were devalued due to the prostitution traffic in their neighborhood. Tell them it was merely moral outrage that caused the litter, etc, etc, etc.

Whether legalization would do away with these problems or not is not the question. The question is why is prostitution illegal? As you have noted, women are kidnapped into prostitution even though it is now illegal. How is making prostitution going to make matters either better or worse?

Streetwalkers strolling down your street and bringing property values down is a problem as we type, again what has the legalization of the act have to do with it?

The question has not been addressed already. Dangers inherent in the profession of prostitution have been brought up. There are dangers inherent in many professions, but no one is advocating making any of them illegal. No one has addressed why prostitution has to first show that all the dangers inherent in the job have to be done away with. No other profession is held to this standard.

The question remains: Why is prostitution illegal? Is the answer because it is dangerous? It brings down property values? People are coerced into it?

Biggirl you failed to read the links provided carefully, and failed also to note the postings themselves.

Amsterdam, in the Netherlands has a problem with women being kidnapped in to servitude in the legal brothels there. IE. It’s legal there. They still have a problem with illegal prostitution. we pointed this out on page one.

So, your argument, like the others who posted the same on page one, falls apart.

You ask why they must show that dangers/problems associated with prostitution would go away with making it legal.

  1. Prositution is already illegal, you want it to change, it is up to you to demonstrate that the change would be beneficial.

  2. We’ve already demonstrated that many of the problems associated with the illegal trade continue to be a problem in areas where it has been legalized. You want it legalized, again, it is up to you to demonstrate why this would be a good idea.

  3. One of the main ways that the problems associated with prostitution is currently dealt with, is to arrest those people who are involved in the process. It is one of the ways that communities have been somewhat effective in at least changing the level of the problems associated with it. Without that tool, how would a community deal with the other problems associated with this activity? Since it is you who wants it legalized, once again it is up to you to demonstrate how this would work.

And, if you need help in understanding what these ‘other problems’ are, please read page one, and the links provided.

I did read everything and I understand perfectly what it is you are saying. But you are not answering my question nor the question in the OP.

Why is prostitution illegal.

I understand that bad things happen to people in the prostitution business. I understand that prostitution is illegal right now. Why is this so? The reasons given so far:

It is an old law based on old moral standards.
It is dangerous.
It brings down property values.
It disrupts families.

All of the above reasons can be applied to many professions that are perfectly legal. What I am putting forth here that the only difference between prostitution and all the other perfectly legal dangerous, property devaluing, distruping professions is that we, as a country, are moralistic prudes.

Let’s compare the reaction to the news of these immigrants to the US and the reaction to the fate of the immigrants in your link. These Chinese immigrants have sold themselves into slavery and are being coerced into working in the restaurant business. No one would think that the way to fix this problem would be to outlaw Chinese restaurants.

Let me reiterate in case my meaning has been lost. The reason why prostitution is still illegal is because a great many people have a moral problem with it.

Biggirl… thank you.

I reiterate myself: no one has shown that keeping it illegal HELPS a damn thing.

I note, Wring, that you say “some” of the problems remain even with it legal. Not “all”. Nor do you say that making it illegal in any manner whatsoever alleviates any of the problems. All keeping it illegal does is make moralistic types feel better.

Stoid

Uh poor comparison, don’t you think? The prostitutes customer I would imagine leaves happy, not dead.

I already demonstrated two beneficial changes: (1) economically and (2) a choice for prostitutes and clients to do their business in a safe, disease-free environment.

This looks exactly like 1. Just because legilisation cannot cure every problem associated with prostitution, doesn’t mean it’s a bad thing.

How is legalisation taking away the tools? Law enforcement will still be able to arrest those involved in illegal forms of prostitution.

I assume you are talking about the “trafficked” women, correct me if i’m wrong.

  • If the brothels are using forced labour, they are not “legal” (i assume Amsterdam has anti-slavery laws).

  • Trafficking is another word for illegal immigration, it does not always mean that it’s forced immigration.

  • Can you demonstrate that the legalisation of prostitution in The Netherlands increased forced prostitution and that these women were not just diverted from another trafficking destination?

  • As Biggirl was saying (correct me if i’m wrong), illegal activities (or undesirable effects) occur with many different industries. The government should be focusing on the illegal activities rather than criminalising the entire industry.

CNN Article - “The victims [of trafficking] … find themselves forced into roles as sex slaves, prostitutes or nude dancers.”

U.S. Justice Department Official on Trafficking in Persons from the U.S. Department of State web site - “[T]ypical victims of trafficking may be migrant agricultural workers, women forced into prostitution, or domestic servants who are kept as virtual prisoners in their employers’ homes.”

Shame on CNN for twisting the facts. But it’s time to criminalise agriculture in the U.S. … who’s with me?

Because women want to be economically self-sufficient and the only way legally is through prostitution in The Netherlands? But that’s just a guess.

By area, you mean the red-light district, not Amsterdam, i assume. By the same token, i’d advise a black person not to attend a KKK rally, but i sure wouldn’t criminalise freedom of speech and assembly.

Actually, i saw quite a few more improvements: major decrease in the risk of disease (mandatory condoms), major decrease in violent assault from customers (panic buttons in every room), and a steady supply of customers. Of course, they have to give up some freedoms to gain those advantages, but what i was trying to show is that they were not forced into the work and they were “stuck” in the profession with no way out.

And thank you, drachillix for taking care of one item for me.

Stoid - the day the number of rapes on women by men is as low as the number of rapes on men by women is the day my sister can feel comfortable walking alone down a street whilst being hollered at.

Feminism is absolutely not about selling your body for pocket change. Neither is it about telling men that so long as they have the money, they can have sex with the woman of their choice.

If we lived in a world where men’s attitude to women was the same as women’s attitude to men - and that attitude was one that recognised that we are all just human beings together trying to live as best we can. If that was the case then maybe I’d see prostitution in a more favorable light. I still wouldn’t understand the need to go force* a woman to have sex with you by waving a few quid in her face mind you. But at least I wouldn’t see it as being so deletrious to society.

Sadly this is not that world. And I still think that prostitution is something that fundamentally raises barriers between the sexes and separates us into tribes.

Women are from Venus, men from Mars? Fuck that - the last time I looked, we were all from Earth.

pan
*I use the word force advisedly - money is abstracted power. No money, no sex so there is a coercive element to the trade.

Then everything you buy is being coersed from it’s original owner?

I think (and it is only my own opinion) another reason prostitution remains illegal is the male need to control women’s sexuality. Or, more accurately, to control when and how sex can be offered.

By criminalizing prostitution, society can remove control away from the seller. It also makes it easier to demonize the sex worker because now, not only is she selling sex but she’s a criminal too.

Prostitution is not coersion, it is not kidnapping, it is not murder. It is performing sexual acts for money. Where is the crime in that?

Biggirl – you think that there are many, legal occupations that disrupt society, can spread disease, reduces property values, facilitates other criminal behavior, causes other persons, not involved in the activity harm (both physical and financial)? Care to elaborate on that? AND, let me repeat for you , for the LAST time, that all of the problems with the illegal behavior do NOT change (as proven in my link) when the activity is legalized. You want it legal – it is up to you to demonstrate why it should be, since there are a wide variety of reasons that it shouldn’t be. Repeating your assertion that it’s strictly due to moral considerations doesn’t make it so, and doesn’t prove your point. . Until you hold up your end of the debate, there’s nothing more to be said.

RE: your later posting – the act of trading sex for money is more than a simple transaction between two people. See above comments for other issues regarding the practice. In reality, as well, one should be very cautious in the use of the word “consensual” . Certainly, those women who have been kidnapped weren’t consenting, those who are addicted to drugs have questionable acquiescence, those who were shamed into it by boyfriends, family etc ditto. And, there are specific harms to persons other than those involved in the practice (see lists above).

Stoid. Ditto. Let me spell it out for you slowly. Keeping it illegal gives the authorities important tools in order to attempt to effect change on the current problems. Making it legal did not do away with the problems, we only have your assertion that it made them less, and in some ways, it created yet another new problem (importing women to serve in the brothels). So, until and unless you demonstrate by evidence that making it legal will serve the greater good for the population as a whole (not simply for those who choose to involve themselves in the profession), there’s nothing more to be said. Two threads, multiple pages, still waiting.

drachillix – the quote you cited was merely an example. The ‘case’ was attempted that by again making prostitution illegal in Nevada, there would be a huge amount of current tax revenue lost. My point was that certainly, anything could be legalized and taxed. It didn’t make it either right or a good idea. The fact that Nevada has gotten used to this $$ from taxes does not make the case that the activity should be legalized. What did Nevada do before it legalized prostitution?

Monocracy Your first ‘demonstrated’ benefit is taxation. See the argument above. The fact that the government can benefit from taxation of any behavior is not a reason to legalize/decriminalize the behavior if it not in the publics better interest in the first place. Your second, that of disease etc. According to the data that Stoid has provided before, disease spread is not a significant problem from prostitution. Are you now admitting that it is? And if so, let us remember again that to decriminalize it will not provide these benefits, that to make it legal will take away the best form of enforcement of the practice as a whole. And since we’ve demonstrated over and over again, that when the practice is legalized (and regulated}, it does NOT eliminate the illegal and unregulated practice, it only makes those harder to enforce. And remember, too, according to your own links, the sex workers themselves are not in favor of legalization/regulation but in favor of decriminalization.

To understand how the legalization of the activity will effect and take away the enforcement aspect of the cj system, you need to understand how enforcement works. Currently, you can arrest anyone who engages in sexual favors for $$. But you would have it illegal for anyone to engage in the behavior except in these regulated areas, right? But how would you control and regulate the ones who chose not to abide by these rules? How would this not hamper the authorities? How would they even attempt to address the illegal behavior?

You missed the point about the admonition re: the women in Amsterdam red light district. In that city, they’ve chosen to make a part of the city the “red light” district. In Nevada, they’ve achieved the same segregation purpose by placing the ranches in remote areas. One would presume that if the business was a wonderful, lucrative and no problems business, there wouldn’t be this insistence on having them segregated. Apparently, in Amsterdam’s red light district, women, presumably not in the profession, have reason to be concerned. So, by legalizing prostitution, you would create areas where women in particular would not be safe. That’s a new problem for me. In order to create these areas where women in particular would be in danger, you need a very strong reason, not simply ‘why not?’

Yes Amsterdam has laws against slavery etc. I don’t need to prove that the practice increased with the legalization. My proof is that legalization of the behavior has not eliminated the problems associated from the behavior. My proof is in. For the last time, YOU are under the obligation to prove your assertion that legalization will improve the situation for** society as a whole**. At best you’ve demonstrated that some of the sex workers themselves would be happier. Insufficient.

And, for all of you: if this is such a wonderful, self fulfilling and lucrative career option in Amsterdam, why, then, are women needing to be kidnapped from other countries in order to perform the work? Perhaps because your assumption (that it’s wonderful, self fulfilling and lucrative career) is wrong?

Stoid, say whatever you want but please don’t put words in my mouth.

 If I seem to have contradicted myself in the last post, allow me to clarify.
 You, Norma Jean and others claim that most prostitutes make an informed, completely uncoerced decision to become sex workers and that they love their jobs. Rather than any kind of hard facts, you present anecdotal evidence that this is so.

  I and many other posters are not convinced by this. We present our own anecdotal evidence. You are not convinced by this. You can present as many happy hooker stories as you want. We can counter with plenty of junky/sexually molested as a child/forced to prostitute under threat of violence stories.

 I don't deny that Norma and her friends had fulfilling careers as prostitutes. I deny that they are representative of prostitutes in general. Anecdotal evidence by its very nature can not be proven to represent the whole. But in this and the previous prostitution thread, you rely almost entirely on anecdotes.
    As for believing what I want to believe, I suggest you reread the last thread. You ignore any evidence contrary to your position. You present anecdotes meant to convince us. When we present anecdotes of our own, you dismiss them out of hand.

You claim that street walkers are a minority of prostitutes? I want hard evidence.

You claim that escorts are treated better by their pimps? I want hard evidence.

You claim that the majority of prostitutes become sex workers completely of their own free will? I want hard evidence.

  I am still waiting for evidence that cops do not arrest clients.

That last line should be:

I am still wating for proof that police arrest prostitutes but ignore the activities of their clients.