Why is support of Israel such a huge requirement for American politicians?

Great Debates
21

What is the answer to 99 out of 100 questions? Money.

The answer to this question is money.

People that run for public office LOVE money. And AIPAC, a well known political action committee, pumps money into the coffers of those that support Israel. To not publically support Israel is political suicide… So all politicians pay lip service to the topic.

As for those of you that seem to think this has anything to do with democracy or military strategy, you have to look at the reality of it.

From a US perspective, if Israel doesn’t exist (and I’m not suggesting it go away, so hold your fire), it wouldn’t matter to our strategic interests.

It’s a democracy So what? The US does business with every country that can benefit us. China is awful on civil rights, but it continues to receive most favored nation status to continue the business ties and money flow. Hell, we are even doing limited business with Vietnam these days. I can think of only two countries that the US doesn’t trade with at all. Cuba and North Korea. I’m not sure about Iran. Oil is oil, so who knows how much we get from Iranian sources?

It’s a strategic military location. Well, not really. Just because it looks like it would be on a map doesn’t make it so. Remember the first Gulf War? How about the latest 7 year nightmare? How many US planes have taken off from Israel and bombed Iraq? or Afghanistan? zero. It wouldn’t please those nations in the region that the US was using Israel as a base… and those nations supply us with a significant amount of crude oil.

We have bases in Saudi Arabia and Kuwait, and I’m sure we will have a number of permanent bases in Iraq when it’s all said and done. Israel from a military perspective is useless. Even if we lost our bases over there, we’d still have our aircraft carriers to bring the war to that region.

I’m afraid we are hopelessly tied together with Israel. Kind of like jumping out of an airplane tied to the instructor. The only problem is, when the shoot doesn’t open, we both go down.

furt said:

Cite please? I don’t think this is true at all. The vast majority of American Jews may support Israel, but I highly doubt the majority of all Americans do.

22

I would ask that you share three factual claims which, in your view, (1) constitute Israeli propaganda; (2) are false; and (3) are widely believed in North America.

Thank you.

23

5-to-1 is probably a high-water mark.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/04/03/opinion/polls/main505251.shtml

Most other polls are much more specific: do you support this or that action, and as noted, the devil is always in the details.
The interesting thing I just learned now are that

  1. it was not always so,
  2. that it’s trending in favor of Israel even more so in recent years.

Funny that suicide bombing has not had a PR benefit …

24

You need to think bigger. It is a global geopolitical game and doing something in one place can have affects in entirely different areas. You also need to take a longer view than just what seems to make sense today. Having a toehold in the ME is not a thing to toss away lightly.

25

furt,

Thank you for the links. I encourage everyone to read them.

I’m sure you read the first article to the end, so you do realize that there are a number of different statistics in that article. It was also written in April 2002, when the US was still very raw from 9-11.

I think it’s also important to quantify what we are both trying to validate. When I stated that I highly doubt that a vast majority of Americans support Israel, I was being too general. Of course a vast majority of Americans (and indeed most people regardless of borders) would be opposed to suicide bombings and the like. No argument here.

“Vast” is undefined (is 75-25 vast? 60-40? I don’t know). For the subject of the debate, we can make it simple. Toss out “vast” and just use “majority”. 51-49, with ± considered to make whatever question that falls within the error margin a statistical wash.

However, if we are asking about unilateral support for all of Israel’s actions, regardless of what the Israeli government does and what it means to the US, its population, our tax dollars, the lives of our men and women in the armed services, our short and long-term standing in the court of world opinion, our national security, etc., I believe the numbers are much different. Before I throw out a number, I will try to provide a cite or two (fair is fair, after all!)

It IS important to consider the context of the question. I think you would agree (and I don’t have numbers yet to back this up), that many Americans believe that 9-11 would not have happened at all if the US government was not completely in lock-step with Israel. Would those airliners have been hijacked if we were not perceived by the arab world to be blindly supporting Israel?

The largest problem I see with our elected official’s inability to say “no” to AIPAC, the campaign money, Israel, etc. is that any real debate about Israel, our M.E. policies, etc., can’t get off the ground. I don’t blame Jews or Israelis for using our current system to its benefit. Unfortunately, that’s how it is set up. Money drives everything. Without it, you can’t get elected… and without an office, you can’t create policy, allocate public funds, or the like. Until PAC money is eliminated, this country will be saddled with Israel (and pharmaceutical companies, defense contractors, and other entities that buy influence with their contributions).

26

As I said before, it’s not just that Israel is a democracy. Israel is a democracy with a very similar culture to that of the United States, and many Israelis are dual citizens with the U.S. Plus, being against Israel would not automatically get us in good with the oil-producing Middle Eastern countries and especially not with the people predisposed to perform terrorist acts. They already hate the U.S.; they were raised to hate the U.S.; and a sudden change in U.S. foreign policy really isn’t going to do much to change things. Remember, Isreal is the “Little Satan” and the U.S. is the “Great Satan”.

Valete,
Vox Imperatoris

ETA: And another thing—Israel often does America’s “dirty work”: assassinations and police actions that most Americas support but don’t want to or are unable to get involved with. Even though the U.S. military is far larger than Israel’s, it is hampered much more by international relations, the fact that it doesn’t have a draft, and the simple logistical problem of having to maintain bases all around the world.

27

Does AIPAC want the US embassy to be in Jerusalem?
Is the US embassy in Jerusalem?

28

Of course it wouldn’t have happened, because the Arabs would have wiped Israel off the map and killed all the Jews they could. Then we’d have no mid-east problems at all.

29

Please. Is it your contention that without the US, Israel would cease to exist?

Surely Israel doesn’t believe that, do they?

If what you are saying is true, then why not make Israel the 51st state and just end the charade?

Let’s stop the “wiping Israel off the map” or “pushing Israel into the sea” nonsense. It’s not going to happen. Focus on the debate instead of using hyperbole to deflect the real issue.

30

They might not cease to exist (depends on how effective their military would be without U.S. aid), but they would be in serious trouble. Are you doubting that Islamic extremists in the region would like to kill all the “Zionist Imperialists” they can?

Valete,
Vox Imperatoris

ETA: As for making them the “51st state”, that’s because they don’t want to be the 51st state, since it would kind of defeat the purpose of Jewish homeland (plus a religious state would be incompatible with the U.S. Constitution). I’m sure if there were for some reason a movement in Israel to ask the U.S. to annex them, most Americans wouldn’t mind.

31

So you don’t take the muslim extremists at their word.

32

Assuming for the sake of argument that “it’s not going to happen,” the fact remains that certain of Israel’s enemies would like to do just that. And that fact must inform any sane analysis of the situation.

33

I believe they want to, yes. Do I think they are capable? No. I also don’t think muslim extremists speak for all muslims.

If you are referring to Israel analyzing their national security issues, I absolutely agree. If you are referring to the US, I do not.

34

So that’s why the U.S. sends them lots of money every year for national defense. I’m not sure I see your point here. :confused: Do you think most Americans want to see Israel in trouble?

Valete,
Vox Imperatoris

35

Sure, happy to.

It is necessary to add that your request has the ring of open and honest inquiry. This has caused me to question my views. So far my working assumption has been similar to the Bush-WMD scenario we are all so familiar with: The Bush supporters knew he was lying too. We sceptics knew they were lying. They were simply were not about to admit to it when the time came. On this board for instance they largely departed. Similarly with Israel, take xtisme’s recent effort to evade the straight answer of the IDF personnel commitment to Afghanistan. It is known the facts are contrary, but there is a higher loyalty than the truth. Now, though it is an astonishing fact that a person can indeed appear to be genuine in their opposition. Must muse on this. Your answers:

  • Palestinian / Hamas / Arab opposition to Israel is, at its core, a continuation of the Nazis.
  • Israel has a military alliance / commitment to / is the strongest military ally of the US in the region.
  • Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East.

Those seem to be the 3 big ones. They appear in different iterations and my wording does not capture every nuance or variation. Eg a variant on the first might include ‘anti-semitic’.

36

furt, as promised, one quick cite (others, please feel free to read as well!)

the American public isn’t as pro-Israel as our congress reflects, 71% of Americans prefer that we not take sides in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict

From Greenwald’s blog:

Vox - My point is that I personally don’t agree with our official policy. The fact that we do financially support Israel and never have real debate in this country troubles me. I was hopeful during the presidential debates that I’d hear something… anything, but to even question policy is to risk being labeled “anti-semite”. That’s not good for a healthy debate. If someone could make an argument to convince me that Israel’s security is important to the security of the US, I would change my mind. I just don’t see it.

The two big reasons in this thread have been:

  1. they are a democracy
  2. they are a strategic asset

I’ve addressed those two points previously in the thread.

And no, I don’t think Americans want to see Israel in trouble. I don’t want to see Israel in trouble. But that doesn’t mean I want to blindly support them, either. I think the US needs to break the deathgrip that Israel has on the US government. Read Greenwald’s blog… it’s another POV to consider.

37

Well, that’s interesting. I never knew that, although I would be interested in seeing the exact phrasing of that poll. For one thing, saying “support Israel unquestionably” is kind of unfair; on the whole I support everything that Israel has done to the extent of my knowledge, but that doesn’t mean I would support anything they might do in the future or that they might have done that I don’t know about (and certainly there have been individual things that could have been handled more wisely in hindsight). I mean, I don’t support the U.S. itself “unquestionably”, but that doesn’t mean I think the U.S. national defense budget is wasted. And I want to repeat that other than Israel simply being a democracy, they’re the country outside the Anglosphere (and arguably inside; *they *certainly have the most links to us) with the most cultural and personal links to America.

Just so I know where you stand here: what is Israel doing in particular that you really don’t like?

Valete,
Vox Imperatoris

ETA: And also, the U.S. doesn’t suck up to them 24/7. The U.S. (particularly more liberal (but not Jewish) politicians) often keeps asking them to stop pissing off the Palestinians, or to move certain settlements, or not to take certain military actions, etc.

38

:rolleyes: I didn’t evade the question. You just chose not to understand or accept my answer. The question itself is pretty much the definition of ‘disingenuous’…and since you know it is that puts the smell of agenda on the very fact that not only did you ask the question but you then brought it up in THIS thread (in which I wasn’t even a participant in until this post) in this manner.

The answer to why the IDF haven’t committed personnel to Afghanistan (or Iraq) is of course simple…we have neither asked nor desired for them to do so. Politically it would be stupid for us to ask them and stupid of them to volunteer to do so. It would be a political AND military nightmare for Israeli troops to be seen in either country, and even support troops would be frowned on. If you can cite the US requesting IDF personnel in either theater and being turned down then you may have a point.

Please provide such a cite and I will gladly revise my thinking on this. Of course, I’m hardly holding my breath that YOU will do the same on discovering that your supposed gotcha point here is really a load of horseshit…

-XT

39

Whackamole,
The strategic calculus was different during the Cold and Israel did have some strategic value. However the Cold War has been over for 20 years. Besides Israel was just one of many Cold War allies and wasn’t really of central strategic importance. Saudi Arabia was a far more important Cold War ally which kept oil prices low and helped fight the Soviet Union in Afghanistan. The US would certainly have had a major presence in the Middle East without Israel. And if we are talking about the Cold War, I wouldn’t be surprised if the damage done by the Pollardespionage case alone outweighed whatever modest benefits were provided by Israel.

40

It seems to me that this is a matter of opinion, not a matter of fact. The Nazis wanted Europe to be free of Jews and a similar sentiment can be witnessed with many of Israel’s enemies. On the other hand, I’m sure you could think of many differences between Hamas and the Nazis. So claiming that Hamas is “at its core, a continuation of the Nazis” is not any more false than claiming that chocolate covered ants are a delicious treat.

Again, this is a matter of opinon. Like claiming that Subaru makes the best car on the market.

I would imagine that most informed Americans are vaguely aware that there have been elections, for example, in Iraq.

I don’t think you have sustained your claim.

My opinion only.