Why is the economy still shit?

How would anyone make more money than they have now without taking a risk? And who would take a risk in a shitty economy? Not someone who has that kind of money to start with. If investment was paying off, there would be a lot more of it. We had this same situation following WWII, and Eisenhower fixed the problem by raising taxes of profits sky high, and the only way around was through investment. It worked so well it took half a century of mismanagement to deplete the benefits.

Sorry, but supply and demand is dirt simple. There is plenty of supply, and a lack of demand. And to increase demand, people need jobs so that they have money to spend. And the suppliers didn’t get their supply through risk, they got it by buying politicians and conning the American public.

ETA: Hey John! Haven’t run into you on the board lately. How you been?

I have the same gut feeling – we’re in for a jobless recovery. Corporations are seeing record profits, and apparently don’t feel a need to hire. Get used to 9%, until some the next new technology comes along.

I submit that the percentage of effective decisionmakers in our economy is so miniscule that, collectively, it is feasible they can choose to ignore incentives (based on the fact that they, personally, have all they need and are insulated from market forces) in order to advocate for a political reality they find more to their liking.

And if the ‘employment world’ was so horrified at the burdens of possible tax burdens (whatever they are… cite?) then they shouldn’t have sent their Tea Party minions to fight against a public option to remove such a burden from their oh-so-delicate backs.

I don’t think that most of the American public is conned anymore, Tripolar. But it doesn’t seem to matter since Congress isn’t paying much attention to the wishes of the people they represent.

My social security check may or may not be deposited in August 3. But the oil companies and other corporations will still keep their special perks, corporate jets will fly with a little assistance from the American working stiff, and bridges will continue to crumble while citizens go without work. Lift the debt ceiling like we did 7 times for George W. Bush? No. That’s not part of the Shock Doctrine: Take control through crisis.

But I think they underestimate the anger of the people – especially the vets.

Zoe - Congress isn’t paying attention to the the people they are supposed to represent. They are paying close attention to the people they actually represent. And they aren’t underestimating the anger of the people at all. The American people are sheep who will follow anyone off a cliff to avoid taking responsibility for their own actions. That’s how you get vets.

But this time is different.

To understand why the recovery is so slow, you have to understand what caused the recession in the first place. he root causes are really not hard to understand:

  1. The combination of the fed keeping interest rates artificially low, China flooding the west with investment dollars due to its savings policy, and new financial derivatives caused a large asset bubble.

  2. Money that couldn’t find good returns due to extremely low interest rates moved into higher-risk, higher return investments like mortgages.

  3. The rise of computing power and the speed of communications caused a worldwide financial system to explode in complexity and ultimately, risk.

  4. Governments played along by securitizing mortgages, further shielding banks from risk so they would loan more money to more people.

  5. The result of low interest rates, easy credit, and the elimination of risk signals caused a whole lot of bad mortgages to be given out, which caused real estate to explode in quantity and price.

  6. Consumers saw their on-paper wealth skyrocket as their homes went up in value. That ‘wealth effect’ caused them to spend more, taking out second mortgages or loading up on credit card debt.

  7. Governments spent more too, racking up big debts all over the world.

The result was a phantom economy - people thought they were far wealthier than they were. So they spent as though they were wealthy, and businesses ramped up production to supply the demand.

Then came the crash - first, sectoral declines in real estate caused bankruptcies. Extended investors faced margin calls. About this time, all the holders of that mortgage debt started to realize that not only were their portfolios worth a fraction of what they thought, but that the risk component of their holdings was virtually unknown because it had been abstracted away by numerous intermediate transactions. This caused the financial system to come to a crashing halt - no one knew good debt from bad, and money simply stopped flowing.

This calamity caused a panic in governments, the media, and the public. Fear set in, and consumer spending slowed to a crawl. Mortgages stopped being handed out, and the real estate industry collapsed even further.

The bottom line is that everyone is less wealthy than they thought they were. As a result, they are spending less (rationally so). But an economy built in the good times has too much supply for the bad times. So layoffs happen, businesses shut down, and spending declines even further.

Governments tried to break this vicious cycle through fiscal stimulus and through monetary stimulus, thinking that if they just got lots of money into the economy again, people would start spending, and once the economy started recovering, the fear would go away and the old economy would return.

There are several problems with that happy scenario. The first is that it ignores the fact that current behavior is rational. People aren’t spending less because they’re scared - they’re spending less because reality slapped them in the face and informed them that their previous habits were based on a mirage. If you think that the $800,000 in equity in your home is going to pay for your retirement, you have no need to save. So you spend your whole paycheck. If your house equity suddenly drops to $300,000, you go “Eek!” and start putting away more money from each check. Your consumption declines. Permanently.

The second problem with the stimulus is that it requires borrowed money, and the root cause of the recession is that the loss of the asset bubble put private and government balance sheets deep into the red. When governments are defaulting on debt in Europe, running up similar-sized debt in America is just going to scare people. Also, people aren’t stupid - they know that deficit spending today means higher taxes or reduced services tomorrow. So the economy tends to see borrowed money as roughly equivalent to a tax - and they consume less accordingly, wiping out the effects of the stimulus.

The third problem with the stimulus is that it doesn’t address the fact that during the bubble there wasn’t just too much production - there was too much of the wrong kind of production. Huge malinvestment in industries that are no longer sustainable at bubble sizes. Construction, auto manufacturing, government itself. These and other industries are bigger than they should be, and no amount of stimulus will fix that. What will fix it is to allow market forces to work and clear out the dead wood and free up resources for more productive use. It will be painful, but it has to be done. But instead, governments have been borrowing money to prop up these unsustainable expenditures, which is one reason why you’re not seeing a recovery.

These characteristics are common to governments around the world to one degree or another. The U.S. in particular has additional hurdles added by the ideology of the Obama administration. The health care plan was horribly timed - it added a trillion dollars in new costs and a huge amount of regulatory uncertainty to the economy at the worst time possible. A big financial reform bill was passed that’s a messy web of new regulations - many still to be written by the bureaucrats. This has also slowed business investment.

The Obama administration has not pursued growth policies aggressively, such as trade expansion or deregulation. Hell, even Jimmy Carter recognized the need to deregulate the economy when stagflation put him in a corner. The EPA under Obama keeps making threatening noises about regulating CO2, Obama’s National Labor Relations Board just killed a 2,200 job expansion by Boeing because they wanted to expand in a non-union state, and now Obama wants another couple of trillion dollars in taxes levied on the ‘rich’ to maintain a government that is too large for the new economy. The Obama administration has shut down domestic offshore drilling and exploration, and the Democrats in Congress haven’t passed a bloody budget in almost two years, which causes even more uncertainty in the business community.

Just about everything this administration has done is anti-growth, and its stimulus had the effect of ‘saving’ government jobs by destroying private sector jobs.

But even if he was the bestest, pro-business leader around, the economy would still be growing slowly (just not as slowly as it is now). This is a ‘balance sheet’ recession, and like Japan’s, it’s going to last a long time.

Isn’t Obama’s “tax increase” simply an elimination of the George Bush tax cut imposed after the glorious years of the Clinton budget surpluses ?

Explain, please.

Of course! Why waste the time to get certified in a job field that has a potential to net me a six-figure yearly salary, like a real man, when Obama says I can sit on my ass and and earn $330 a week. I have no bills to pay, no child to support, and no rent, either. $330 a week for doing nothing sounds pretty good, but my dad would never forgive me for living off the system, and not putting a dime back into it. Other Americans are feeling like that, though. They would all love to earn money for doing nothing. Obama is basically saying, “It’s all right children, Uncle Sam is here to take care of you. You don’t have to work anymore.” So much for JFK. What ever happened to, “Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country.”?

To which the Republicans reply, ‘County, schmountry. I’ve got mine, and I’m keeping it. If the poor can’t afford bread, let them eat cake! If they can’t afford health care, let them die and be quick about it! The better to decrease the surplus population!’

Now I know why I’m going to vote for Bugs Bunny next election. To Hell with both parties and their secret union. Why don’t they just come out of the closet and admit that they’ve both been taking the American public for a ride? Let’s stop with the pretense. I mean who do they think they’re fooling?

BUGS/DAFFY '12!!!

If they don’t raise it, then they’ll be forced to cut spending in ways they don’t really want to be responsible for. To the tune of $120 BILLION per month (in the red).

If they do raise it, then we’re still overspending by a huge amount with revenues falling (you don’t pay more in if you’re un or under employed).

The word here is exponentially. Continuing on the path we’re currently on will lead us right back to where we are today, looking at yet another limit raise.

And we want to keep spending what we don’t have.

Speaking of that “trust fund”, apparently it doesn’t exist:

Obama says he cannot guarantee Social Security checks will go out on August 3

:wink:

You’ve never had a job or paid taxes, have you?

No, but still, I have yet to see any evidence that says the federal government WANTS me to have a job, so that I can pay taxes. Most employers know that I still live with my parents, of whom my dad still has a 5-figure yearly salary, so they figure I don’t need them, they’d only be putting money in the hands of someone who’d use it irresponsibly.

They’ll give you a job tomorrow. Walk on down to your local military recruiter. Then you’ll have something to complain about when you come back.

That’s just me assuming what most prospective employers think about me. I’m as patriotic as the next John Q. Public, but I really don’t have what it takes to serve my country.

I worked in HR and the 90s saw a huge mass of hiring. Now companies are weeding out that deadwood.

I found so far, my friends and myself, who all kept work are just fine. I’ve not noticed anyone of them suffering. I had an extra job at Christmas in a dept store to earn extra money. None of the Christmas help was suffering, they all wanted extra cash and we sold a lot.

People who didn’t lose their jobs and those who had mortgages that were within their budget didn’t get hit.

Those who had mortgages beyond their means were the first to get hit. And instead of taking their losses, they tried to hold on. This made it worse. Banks cut off credit to everyone. Even I saw all my credit card limits get cut to about 20% of what they were and I have excellent credit and never missed payments.

Of course a lot of people did lose jobs and their homes. These are the people that are hurt. They aren’t going to recover and they need to accept that. It’s not a very nice thing to think at 40, you lost your job and/or home and you simply will not recover to the point you were ever.

You won’t own another home, but will rent for the rest of your life. You’re going to make 50% to 75% of your salary before and inflation will make it seem less.

But this is an economic adjustment. We went through the same thing in the 80s. Personally I know many more people that were hit much harder in the early 80s.

Two part time jobs will take the place of one full time jobs. And by 2014 it’ll get worse as companies have had 4 years to figure out ways to skimp to the bone on the new health care. You can bet they will only offer the bottom they have to to their regular employees while making it up through loopholes to their top level execs.

It’s a new world.

Can we have a cite where an actual economist gives us that analysis?

And did companies have the option of just investing in China or India (or any number of other places) back then?

Paul Krugman has a blog. I find it quite handy to check out on a regular basis. Brad Delong is also a really good resource.

Where do you get this stuff? This is completely devoid of any semblance of reality. You really should check the facts before you spout off.

Here’s the job creation for the private sector under Obama, from Steve Benen at Washington Monthly.

http://wamo.info/pa/110708_privatejobs.jpg

Here’s Paul Krugman on the size of government. Look at the chart for public sector employment. Apart from the Census hiring, it’s been a steady downward course!

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/07/08/austerity-usa/

As for why the economy is still shit, here’s the evidence on the effect of the stimulus over time:

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/07/09/anti-stimulus-2/

As many people warned, the stimulus was too small. It worked to stave off another Depression, but it wasn’t enough.